The Great American Symphony

[springrite]

The really bad American symphony is Mennin 8. 

Maybe because it is the most American. 

[Monsieur Croche]

The really bad American symphony is Mennin 8. 

No, the really bad American Symphonies are about 63 of the 67 Alan Hovhaness wrote.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

No, the really bad American Symphonies are about 63 of the 67 Alan Hovhaness wrote.

Surely you mean that one symphony (apart from the truly unique and interesting ones) which he copied out 62 times?

[Reckoner]

No, the really bad American Symphonies are about 63 of the 67 Alan Hovhaness wrote.

You've heard them all? 

I think that Adams' Harmonielehre, a symphony in all but name, is a profound work. His ability to marry a kind of meandering neo-romantic aesthetic with a minimalist sense of pulse and rhythm, is surprisingly successful.

And for all the skepticism that often surrounds him, I think Glass' Symphony No.8 and No. 9 are highly ambitious and affecting works, that may possibly become part of the 'standard rep' one day.

[Karl Henning]

I must disagree with Karl. The American Symphonies really don't match the best German-Austrian ones.

But we knew we disagree on this because (per your curtain line) you do not appreciate the Mennin Eighth or Ninth as you ought 

We might discuss which are the best German-Austrian symphonies, and what it would take for other symphonies (of whatever provenance) to "match" them.  I do not write this to contest your post, Ken;  but I post ruminatively:  as a composer, if I set about writing a symphony (which, I do not mind saying, I hope to do someday) how should I need to write it, so that it might (in the present phrase) match the best German-Austrian symphonies?

If there truly be A Right Answer to that question, I am professionally interested to know it.

An ancillary point I'll make is:  How dismissive might we be of the Mahler Seventh, or of the Beethoven Third (for that matter), if (as with so much of he American symphonic catalogue) we had only the first recording, and of a performance with probably something of an inventory of musical (or even technical) insufficiencies?

[Karl Henning]

And the late Sessions symphonies for goodness' sake.

[arpeggio]

But we knew we disagree on this because (per your curtain line) you do not appreciate the Mennin Eighth or Ninth as you ought 

We might discuss which are the best German-Austrian symphonies, and what it would take for other symphonies (of whatever provenance) to "match" them.  I do not write this to contest your post, Ken;  but I post ruminatively:  as a composer, if I set about writing a symphony (which, I do not mind saying, I hope to do someday) how should I need to write it, so that it might (in the present phrase) match the best German-Austrian symphonies?

If there truly be A Right Answer to that question, I am professionally interested to know it.

An ancillary point I'll make is:  How dismissive might we be of the Mahler Seventh, or of the Beethoven Third (for that matter), if (as with so much of he American symphonic catalogue) we had only the first recording, and of a performance with probably something of an inventory of musical (or even technical) insufficiencies?

My wife and I attended the Staunton, Virginia music festival in August, 2016.  This is a great festival that has a very diverse program from HIP performances to contemporary music.  One of the guest composers was Eric Guinivan.  He currently serves as Assistant Professor of Composition at James Madison University.  At a panel discussions he was lamenting the plight of the contemporary composer.  No matter what he does it is wrong.  His music is to either to tonal or to atonal.  If course if it is not as good as Beethoven's, forget it.

[Karl Henning]

And among The People, few ears in Beethoven's time were adventurous enough to accept it.  In the generation after his death, composers were "correcting" his symphonies for performance.

Now that Beethoven is The Unassailable Musical God, he is used as a bludgeon against (a) other symphonists (Tchaikovsky's or Rakhmaninov's symphonies are "inferior" because they are not about what LvB's were) and (b) any composer now working.

[Ken B]

You've heard them all? 

I think that Adams' Harmonielehre, a symphony in all but name, is a profound work. His ability to marry a kind of meandering neo-romantic aesthetic with a minimalist sense of pulse and rhythm, is surprisingly successful.

And for all the skepticism that often surrounds him, I think Glass' Symphony No.8 and No. 9 are highly ambitious and affecting works, that may possibly become part of the 'standard rep' one day.

Yup.

[Karl Henning]

At a panel discussions he was lamenting the plight of the contemporary composer.  No matter what he does it is wrong.  His music is to either to tonal or to atonal.  If course if it is not as good as Beethoven's, forget it.

Parenthetically, this is 95% of my experience in trying to interest even those groups who are dedicated to new music in my work.  For 47.5%, my work is too "complicated," too "challenging."  For the other 47.5%, it is too "smooth," the musical language is too "familiar."  For all 95%, "Your work is nothing like [Composer N.] whose work we already know we like."


There are two crack new music chamber ensembles in Boston, and a wonderful new music choir in Philadelphia (to participate in which, a singer I know and who has done a great job singing my music, periodically commutes down to Philly).  None of them will give me the musical time of day.


Oh well.

[Ken B]

Parenthetically, this is 95% of my experience in trying to interest even those groups who are dedicated to new music in my work.  For 47.5%, my work is too "complicated," too "challenging."  For the other 47.5%, it is too "smooth," the musical language is too "familiar."  For all 95%, "Your work is nothing like [Composer N.] whose work we already know we like."


There are two crack new music chamber ensembles in Boston, and a wonderful new music choir in Philadelphia (to participate in which, a singer I know and who has done a great job singing my music, periodically commutes down to Philly).  None of them will give me the musical time of day.


Oh well.

I bet if it came with grant money then instead of too spiky and too smooth it would be interestingly silky and reassuringly smooth.

[Karl Henning]

I bet if it came with grant money then instead of too spiky and too smooth it would be interestingly silky and reassuringly smooth.

I need to know what you mean by the pronouns before I understand you.

[Ken B]

I need to know what you mean by the pronouns before I understand you.

They complain your music is simultaneously  too spiky and too smooth. If you had grant money to subvene performances those "too"s would change as indicated.

[Karl Henning]

Maybe, or maybe not.

Maybe, because while Triad is dedicated to music composed in the past 25 years, we did go "off mission" when the opportunity arose to participate in the North American première of Nono's Das atmende Klarsein (and to be paid for the work).  And of course, it was only our second season, so there was also the benefit of publicity.

Somewhere in the mix is still the fact that, especially in this world of new music where we performers are not paid regularly by any established organization, but carving out our own time and devoting our own sweat, and in the vague future hope of "making it" (perhaps "it" here means, simply, money . . . Lord knows I could do with a bit more), it makes a difference when a conductor believes in the work he's leading.  And (what may by now be clear) hardly all of even the new music community "get" (or approve of) my music.

[Mister Sharpe]

Like Philae, Karl, the European Space Agency's lander, you're in a niche on an asteroid craving the light of the sun.  You've got to get an agency or a manager to help pull you out into light of day so your solar panels fire up and your music blasts across the ether to universal acclaim. 

[hpowders]

The greatest Mennin symphony is No. 7, a very serious work without a millisecond of any humor. A terrific work though nonetheless.

I prefer the Schuman symphonies to those by Mennin.

[hpowders]

I would nominate the Ives Third Symphony as the great American symphony.

What a beautiful, touching work.

Pithy too! 

[Karl Henning]

I would nominate the Ives Third Symphony as the great American symphony.

What a beautiful, touching work.

Pithy too! 

Greater than the Mennin Seventh? 

[hpowders]

Greater than the Mennin Seventh? 

No. But the Mennin 7th is not approachable and requires concentrated listening.

For general listeners, I would recommend the Ives-perhaps his most approachable work.

Speaking of the Mennin Seventh, I wonder if the Franck D minor Symphony was an influence?

[Karl Henning]

A fascinating question ... it's only relatively recently that the Franck won me over.

(Sometimes I wonder if, when the time comes to shuffle off this mortal coil, I may just enjoy practically every piece of classical music ....)