Pessimism

[Florestan]

Ah, you see, you think romanticism is a musical style. I think it's a theory about the meaning of life.

It is both. But first and foremost it´s a psychological predisposition and it is neither time nor place dependent. There have been Romantics all throughout history, from Antiquity to Middle Ages to Baroque to Classicism to Romanticism to Modernism to these days... just asa there have been Classicists all throughoput history, from... to...

One does not become a Romantic or a Classicist, one is born as such.

[Mandryka]

One does not become a Romantic or a Classicist, one is born as such.

Like when people talk about the God gene.

[Florestan]

Truthful = says of what is that it is, says of what is not that it is not.

What is? What is not?

Romantic  = that which seeks to move the soul causing love of the world , of humanity and of God

Then JS Bach is, by his own admittance,  the archetypal Romantic.

[(poco) Sforzando]

What is? What is not?

Then JS Bach is, by his own admittance,  the archetypal Romantic.

Glad we got that cleared up.

[Florestan]

Like when people talk about the God gene.

No.

The only difference between the saint and the sinner is that every saint has a past, and every sinner has a future. --- Oscar Wilde

[amw]

Ah, you see, you think romanticism is a musical style. I think it's a theory about the meaning of life.

Music student, yeah. >_> I don't know much about romanticism as a philosophy, actually, except for where it impacts upon music, so whatever

[Mandryka]

I've had enough of trolling for one night. I'm going to listen to Tchaikovsky 6 and go to bed. 

[Florestan]

I've had enough of trolling for one night. I'm going to listen to Tchaikovsky 6 and go to bed.

That´s actually one of the few works that can really qualify as pessimistic, because shortly after writing it Tchaikovsky simply died.  A genuine case of "no comfort, no hope".

You´re not much into Romantic orchestral music, if I´m not mistaken. Do you like Pathetique?

[(poco) Sforzando]

I've had enough of trolling for one night. I'm going to listen to Tchaikovsky 6 and go to bed.

New day. We can all start trolling again.

[Jo498]

The romantic era largely got rid of the "lieto fine" that dominated all baroque and most classical opera. Recall that Mozart added a somewhat happy ending after the descent to hell in Don Giovanni.

More broadly speaking, romanticism is a reaction against the (usually very optimistic) rationalism of the 18th century. Partly because of the shallow, reductionist tendencies in some enlightenment philosophy, partly because of the terreur after the French revolution (the shattered utopia of enlightenment). Of course this is a very shallow sketch, e.g. Schiller and Goethe remained "classicist" in most respects although there contemporaries were the first romantics but these were important factors.

Anyway, if JS Bach can be classified as "romantic", the word has no meaning (a word that can mean everything means nothing)

[Florestan]

Anyway, if JS Bach can be classified as "romantic", the word has no meaning (a word that can mean everything means nothing)

Just to avoid any possible misunderstanding: I certainly don´t consider Bach a Romantic, but Mandryka´s definition of Romanticism (that which seeks to move the soul causing love of the world , of humanity and of God) is perfectly congruent with Bach´s own statements that "Music is an agreeable harmony for the honor of God and the permissible delights of the soul" and that "The aim and final end of all music should be none other than the glory of God and the refreshment of the soul." 

[relm1]

In my mind, pessimism is a tendency to have (or anticipate) a negative, gloomy, futile, or just a generally darker outcome.  That is why I see a work of darkness like Mahler 9 to NOT be pessimistic.  The outcome is ultimately acceptance despite the darkness.  This is also why a work like Shostakovitch No. 4 is quite successfully pessimistic.  Throughout its many expressive ranges, comical at times, horrifying at other times, triumphant near the end, then very dark in its final moments, the end result is the listener realizes everything that proceeds the final moments should be reinterpreted in context of this grim ending...very pessimistic.  I am not sure if a work that is just plain gloomy (I'm looking at you Allan Pettersson) would qualify as pessimistic or just plain depressing.  Maybe they are the same, but I think the pessimistic works tend to have a wider emotional range but a final conclusion being negative, gloomy, ambivalent...pessimistic.  I don't really think Vaughan Williams No. 9 qualifies but No. 6 does.  No. 9 is engaged in bitter long fought defiance to me.   I do think Sibelius No. 4 and 6 qualifies.

This is of course just an opinion.

[Mandryka]

Do you like Pathetique?

Unlistenable final movement, I'm a Brit, I like stiff upper lips. I like the waltz.

[Florestan]

I like the waltz.

It´s great, ain´t it?  He surely had his way with waltzes.

[vandermolen]

In my mind, pessimism is a tendency to have (or anticipate) a negative, gloomy, futile, or just a generally darker outcome.  That is why I see a work of darkness like Mahler 9 to NOT be pessimistic.  The outcome is ultimately acceptance despite the darkness.  This is also why a work like Shostakovitch No. 4 is quite successfully pessimistic.  Throughout its many expressive ranges, comical at times, horrifying at other times, triumphant near the end, then very dark in its final moments, the end result is the listener realizes everything that proceeds the final moments should be reinterpreted in context of this grim ending...very pessimistic.  I am not sure if a work that is just plain gloomy (I'm looking at you Allan Pettersson) would qualify as pessimistic or just plain depressing.  Maybe they are the same, but I think the pessimistic works tend to have a wider emotional range but a final conclusion being negative, gloomy, ambivalent...pessimistic.  I don't really think Vaughan Williams No. 9 qualifies but No. 6 does.  No. 9 is engaged in bitter long fought defiance to me.   I do think Sibelius No. 4 and 6 qualifies.

This is of course just an opinion.

Interesting post. I largely agree with what you say about Vaughan Williams and Shostakovich.

[The new erato]

Interesting post. I largely agree with what you say about Vaughan Williams and Shostakovich.

I'll raise the ante with the Shostakovich Quartet no 13, pessimistic in a scary wy,

[Jo498]

Just to avoid any possible misunderstanding: I certainly don´t consider Bach a Romantic, but Mandryka´s definition of Romanticism (that which seeks to move the soul causing love of the world , of humanity and of God) is perfectly congruent with Bach´s own statements that "Music is an agreeable harmony for the honor of God and the permissible delights of the soul" and that "The aim and final end of all music should be none other than the glory of God and the refreshment of the soul." 

Yes, this is true about Bach, but certainly not for all of the romantics. And I do not think that most romantic's general attitude towards music, the universe and all the rest was congruent with Bach's.

[relm1]

Interesting post. I largely agree with what you say about Vaughan Williams and Shostakovich.

What do you think about what I said of Mahler?  Many people find Mahler to be sad, depressing where I generally do not.  I do find it hyper-expressive so the sad moments can be very sad, the euphoric moments are very euphoric, etc.  The Adagietto from No. 5 for instance is frequently used as a dirge for sad reflections but I think the original intent was in no way sad but a love paean and it certainly feels it at faster tempo. 

[Florestan]

What do you think about what I said of Mahler?  Many people find Mahler to be sad, depressing where I generally do not.  I do find it hyper-expressive so the sad moments can be very sad, the euphoric moments are very euphoric, etc.  The Adagietto from No. 5 for instance is frequently used as a dirge for sad reflections but I think the original intent was in no way sad but a love paean and it certainly feels it at faster tempo.

Agreed about the Adagietto not being dirge-ish at all but instead rather feel-good albeit in a melancholy-ish way.

And this brings me to a question: do you --- I mean, you gentlemen reading this --- really feel sad or sorrow or pessimistic when listening to perceivably sad, sorrow or pessimistic music? I mean, do you really feel like a father who has just just lost his son after listening to Schubert´´s Erlkonig? Do you feel like the world has really come to an end and there is nothing more to be hoped for after the final chords of Tchaikovsky´s Sixth are over? Do you really weep over Handel´s Lascia ch´io pianga?

[relm1]

Agreed about the Adagietto not being dirge-ish at all but instead rather feel-good albeit in a melancholy-ish way.

And this brings me to a question: do you --- I mean, you gentlemen reading this --- really feel sad or sorrow or pessimistic when listening to perceivably sad, sorrow or pessimistic music? I mean, do you really feel like a father who has just just lost his son after listening to Schubert´´s Erlkonig? Do you feel like the world has really come to an end and there is nothing more to be hoped for after the final chords of Tchaikovsky´s Sixth are over? Do you really weep over Handel´s Lascia ch´io pianga?

Interesting question so I will have to give a multi layered answer.  First, I tend to seek music that matches my mood.  So if I'm in a dark place, I don't want to hear whimsy.  If I want to relax, I won't want to hear bombast for example.  Meanwhile, there are works and moments in works that give me a physical reaction that I don't fully understand.  For example, Mahler 8 or Mahler 2 ending chords literally gives me goosebumps every time.  I somehow have a physical reaction to notes.  I don't know if that is something that happens to other people at that same moment but it is consistent for me.  So I assume for others, this reaction might happen somewhere else and NOT happen for me there.  So I think there is a combination of factors here...that the music has an effect on my mood at a very deep (maybe primitive) level and also that I seek out something that matches my feelings or at least falls within a sympathetic range for my mood.  I have found some music to be devastatingly effective but I was probably already in that mood range when listening.