Do you like the Symphonies of Bax?

[aligreto]

He is a great and underrated conductor (aged 89 now). His recording of Bax's valedictory 7th Symphony is also without equal:

[asin]B000027QWX[/asin]

Thank you for that. I have a number of his recordings but in Baroque and Classical music mainly; this opens up a new dimension for me with Leppard 

[vandermolen]

Thank you for that. I have a number of his recordings but in Baroque and Classical music mainly; this opens up a new dimension for me with Leppard 

My pleasure. I'm aware that Leppard is not associated with this repertoire, which makes it even more interesting. Leppard's recording of Bax's 5th Symphony on LP was a revelation to my youthful self.

[71 dB]

Just finished listening to the third symphony on spotify. The beginning was promising, somehow more positive and more "fluid" than the first 2 symphonies, but the latter part of the long first movement wasn't so great. The rest of the symphony didn't impress me much either. Maybe this was a bit better than the first two?

This is not looking very good. Nearly half of the symphonies done and even the "highly recommended" third didn't do much. I seem to miss something important in this music, something the fans of Bax understand. I have four symphonies to go and it starts to feel like a burden. I wish Elgar had written 7 symphonies. 

I'm sorry, but I am trying to like Bax and this is just as disappointing to me. At least I don't dislike his music. It has a very neutral effect on me.

[vandermolen]

Just finished listening to the third symphony on spotify. The beginning was promising, somehow more positive and more "fluid" than the first 2 symphonies, but the latter part of the long first movement wasn't so great. The rest of the symphony didn't impress me much either. Maybe this was a bit better than the first two?

This is not looking very good. Nearly half of the symphonies done and even the "highly recommended" third didn't do much. I seem to miss something important in this music, something the fans of Bax understand. I have four symphonies to go and it starts to feel like a burden. I wish Elgar had written 7 symphonies. 

I'm sorry, but I am trying to like Bax and this is just as disappointing to me. At least I don't dislike his music. It has a very neutral effect on me.

Did you not enjoy the long poetic Epilogue to the Third Symphony. I suspect that, if you keep going, you may find Symphony 5 has the most cohesive structure. I'm not sure that not enjoying the music means that you are 'missing something'; maybe it is just not your cup of tea.

[71 dB]

Did you not enjoy the long poetic Epilogue to the Third Symphony.

I expected to be impressed by it, but somehow I wasn't.  Maybe I listen to it again to be sure...

EDIT: listened to the third movement again. The first part of the movement it a bit boring. When the epiloque starts halfway into the movement things get better. I wasn't paying attention the first time and I wasn't listening properly. Bax has so much boring stuff in his symphonies it's hard to stay focused for the better parts. Epilogue is good, but not jaw dropping. If all of Bax's music was that good I might be a Bax fan already. 

I suspect that, if you keep going, you may find Symphony 5 has the most cohesive structure. I'm not sure that not enjoying the music means that you are 'missing something'; maybe it is just not your cup of tea.

I'm not giving up on Bax yet. It's just that the hope of Bax becoming one of my favorite composers isn't big after the first 3 symphonies. I am of course very new to Bax at this point and it is clear I don't necessorily understand everything about the music.

[Sergeant Rock]

I'm not giving up on Bax yet.

It took me about 20 years of trying before I could fully appreciate Bax. He was one of the toughest nuts to crack.

Sarge

[71 dB]

Bax's fourth done today. I think this one was the easiest to "get" and most pleasant so far.  0:)

It took me about 20 years of trying before I could fully appreciate Bax. He was one of the toughest nuts to crack.

Sarge

Well, I won't be cracking this nut for 20 years. I move on. So many composers to explore!

[Mirror Image]

He was one of the toughest nuts to crack.

Sarge

Indeed! I still haven't 'cracked the code' yet.

[vandermolen]

Bax's fourth done today. I think this one was the easiest to "get" and most pleasant so far.  0:)

Well, I won't be cracking this nut for 20 years. I move on. So many composers to explore!

Interesting. I really like Symphony 4 too. Looking forward to hearing what you make of No.5 - my favourite overall.

[71 dB]

Interesting. I really like Symphony 4 too. Looking forward to hearing what you make of No.5 - my favourite overall.

Yeah, #5 is next, maybe tomorrow? 

[Mister Sharpe]

I was ensorcelled almost immediately, but lucked out surely by beginning with the tone poems, bite-sized Bax.  Further down the road it helped that I read his autobiography - a delightful book - which elucidates some of his work, esp. the tone poems.  That experience surely confirmed me as a Baxian.  Decades ago, I had a Bax-induced dream - a memorable visit to Faerie that I know I wouldn't have had without him.  Just the once.  He is one of my most treasured musical experiences; his colors are so vivid and the harmonies curious as magic.  I think he requires both concentration and imagination, perhaps two qualities not often working in conjunction.  If you find him challenging, a 'nut to crack,' remember that Sibelius called him "my son in music," and persist.

[Mirror Image]

I was ensorcelled almost immediately, but lucked out surely by beginning with the tone poems, bite-sized Bax.  Further down the road it helped that I read his autobiography - a delightful book - which elucidates some of his work, esp. the tone poems.  That experience surely confirmed me as a Baxian.  Decades ago, I had a Bax-induced dream - a memorable visit to Faerie that I know I wouldn't have had without him.  Just the once.  He is one of my most treasured musical experiences; his colors are so vivid and the harmonies curious as magic.  I think he requires both concentration and imagination, perhaps two qualities not often working in conjunction.  If you find him challenging, a 'nut to crack,' remember that Sibelius called him "my son in music," and persist.

Well, Ghost, let's not confuse your own listening experience with anyone else's. When I listen to Bax, I don't hear anything that remotely sticks out in my mind. Sometimes there's a nice ostinato pattern that appears only to disappear into a musical passage that I can only describe as uninteresting. He's in one ear and out the other and I've heard all of his symphonies and tone poems. I can't even remember anything other than thinking the music wasn't saying anything or at least saying anything to me. Also, Sibelius' own appraisal of Bax's music doesn't mean that I'm going to enjoy just because Sibelius held him in high regard. There's just something missing in his music IMHO. I never thought I'd say this but even I connect more with Messiaen's music more than Bax's and I'm by no means a fan of Messiaen's music.

[71 dB]

Also, Sibelius' own appraisal of Bax's music doesn't mean that I'm going to enjoy just because Sibelius held him in high regard.

Interesting because my impression of Bax so far is he is a kind of British Sibelius. 

[Mirror Image]

Interesting because my impression of Bax so far is he is a kind of British Sibelius. 

Honestly, I don't even hear Sibelius in Bax except maybe in some atmospheric quality in the music. Sibelius always has purpose in his music. Bax, on the other hand, doesn't seem like he's going anywhere with the music. I suppose I could approach Bax as a soundscape type of composer, but, even then, I still probably wouldn't be fully convinced in what other's hear in his music.

P.S. I know you're not a Sibelius fan.

[vandermolen]

Last night I listened to the Fourth Symphony - its first recording with Vernon Handley conducting the semi-professional Guildford Philharmonic (1960s recording). Actually it has an urgency and power unlike any other recording including Handley's more recent version on Chandos. It is even better than Bryden Thomson's fine version although that is the No.1 choice for a modern recording. That early Bax Fourth was only the second Bax symphony to be recorded and the first on LP (Barbirolli's recording of Symphony 3 preceded it in the 78RPM era). The CD is interesting it itself as one of the few genuine recordings on the Concert Artists CD label which perpetrated the Joyce Hatto fraud (her husband ran the label). Joyce Hatto's recording of Bax's Symphonic Variations was another genuine recording. This got me thinking following the discussions on this thread and I wondered why all my preferred versions of the Bax symphonies are from the LP era. Is it because these were my earliest experiences with Bax symphonies or are they simply better performances? On reflection I think that they are better performances and have come to the conclusion that the Naxos series, whilst a great and inexpensive introduction to Bax, are solid but no more than that. I recall as a teenager the huge impact the liturgical-sounding conclusion of Bax's 5th Symphony had on me in the performance conducted by Raymond Leppard on a Lyrita LP. This is the one dedicated to Sibelius. I also wonder if it helps to come from this part of the world to appreciate Bax. When I first encountered Symphony 3 (LSO Downes LP - disgracefully never released on CD by RCA) I was at university in the north of England and living in a grotty student flat (apartment) but very close to the sea. Bax's music often reminds me of the more rugged sections of the English countryside (although Ireland was a big influence on him). I agree with the argument that Bax's symphonies lack a coherent structure but, speaking personally, I love wallowing in the atmospheric episodes and the music often has an emotional appeal to me which compensates for the lack of formal coherence in the structure of the works. Vaughan Williams, who admired Bax said that Bax needed some 'gruelling lessons with Stanford' but I wonder if Bax may have lost more that he gained through attendance in Stanford's tyrannical classes at the Royal College of Music.
Just some rambling thoughts.....

[Mister Sharpe]

Well, Ghost, let's not confuse your own listening experience with anyone else's. When I listen to Bax, I don't hear anything that remotely sticks out in my mind. Sometimes there's a nice ostinato pattern that appears only to disappear into a musical passage that I can only describe as uninteresting. He's in one ear and out the other and I've heard all of his symphonies and tone poems. I can't even remember anything other than thinking the music wasn't saying anything or at least saying anything to me. Also, Sibelius' own appraisal of Bax's music doesn't mean that I'm going to enjoy just because Sibelius held him in high regard. There's just something missing in his music IMHO. I never thought I'd say this but even I connect more with Messiaen's music more than Bax's and I'm by no means a fan of Messiaen's music.

I will tone down my enthusiasm, John, but when I start confusing my "own listening experience with anyone else's," they'll also be getting the bills for my CD purchases.  I noted on this thread and elsewhere that for many Bax is an acquired taste, that's hardly foisting my own experience onto others but an admission that his sound world is distinctive and may require repeated listens.  As far as Sibelius goes, it's customary before hiring someone, whether it's a dept. store manager, attorney to plead one's case, or even a new composer to enjoy, to consider "references" to increase the odds the person hired will be a good fit or success.  Sure, there's no guarantee therein, but Sibelius didn't hand out recommendations lightly.  As far as the Bax/Sibelius link goes my own view is that the latter admired the former for the end more than the means.  Consider what musicologist Burnett James has to say: "The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that, much though Bax admired Sibelius, it is a red herring. I am convinced the line runs far more accurately from Mahler through Bax to Shostakovich. The famous meeting between Sibelius and Mahler seems to me to put Bax squarely in the Mahler not the Sibelius camp. I think this is important, because the eternal references to Sibelius only work to Bax's disadvantage, since his mind worked in a totally different orbit. Bax, with his confessed Russian affiliations looks forward to Shostakovich not back to Sibelius, although at the time and for some time afterwards the real connection could not be seen."

[relm1]

I also wonder if it helps to come from this part of the world to appreciate Bax.

I don't think you have to be English to appreciate Bax.  I have always enjoyed his music and I am American. 

I think 71db won't like Bax if he hasn't so far and is so deep into his work list.  Some composers just don't speak to everyone.  I am completely ambivalent to Holbrooke.  After listening to many of his works, they consistently bore me.  Others like him though and eagerly await each new release of his music. 

I did not approach Bax by way of Elgar which seems to be what 71db is doing.  I approached him more through Vaughan Williams but it was immediately apparent these two were not really comparable though I enjoy both.  They are very distinctive and major symphonists. I enjoy everyone of their symphonies.

[Mirror Image]

I will tone down my enthusiasm, John, but when I start confusing my "own listening experience with anyone else's," they'll also be getting the bills for my CD purchases.  I noted on this thread and elsewhere that for many Bax is an acquired taste, that's hardly foisting my own experience onto others but an admission that his sound world is distinctive and may require repeated listens.  As far as Sibelius goes, it's customary before hiring someone, whether it's a dept. store manager, attorney to plead one's case, or even a new composer to enjoy, to consider "references" to increase the odds the person hired will be a good fit or success.  Sure, there's no guarantee therein, but Sibelius didn't hand out recommendations lightly.  As far as the Bax/Sibelius link goes my own view is that the latter admired the former for the end more than the means.  Consider what musicologist Burnett James has to say: "The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that, much though Bax admired Sibelius, it is a red herring. I am convinced the line runs far more accurately from Mahler through Bax to Shostakovich. The famous meeting between Sibelius and Mahler seems to me to put Bax squarely in the Mahler not the Sibelius camp. I think this is important, because the eternal references to Sibelius only work to Bax's disadvantage, since his mind worked in a totally different orbit. Bax, with his confessed Russian affiliations looks forward to Shostakovich not back to Sibelius, although at the time and for some time afterwards the real connection could not be seen."

I understand and thanks for this thoughtful post. Let me just say: I've tried Bax on numerous occasions and the music just escapes me each time. No fault of the composer's but merely my own listening experience. I'm not sure, though, at this juncture, I want to continue to try when there is a world of music out there that I do love and adore. For me, time is better spent in that other world.

[vandermolen]

I don't think you have to be English to appreciate Bax.  I have always enjoyed his music and I am American. 

I think 71db won't like Bax if he hasn't so far and is so deep into his work list.  Some composers just don't speak to everyone.  I am completely ambivalent to Holbrooke.  After listening to many of his works, they consistently bore me.  Others like him though and eagerly await each new release of his music. 

I did not approach Bax by way of Elgar which seems to be what 71db is doing.  I approached him more through Vaughan Williams but it was immediately apparent these two were not really comparable though I enjoy both.  They are very distinctive and major symphonists. I enjoy everyone of their symphonies.

I don't think that you have to be English either any more than you need to be American to appreciate Copland. I fact many composers are largely disregarded in their own countries and more appreciated elsewhere (Sibelius in Britain in the 1930s comes to mind). I just wonder how well Bax's music travels. I recall going into a CD shop in Austria about twelve or so years ago and noting that there was a considerable number of CDs of music by Benjamin Britten and none by Vaughan Williams at all, although VW is much better known internationally now. Music and Landscape is an interesting field of study (there is a book about it) and maybe in my psyche Bax and the countryside have kind of merged together. I'm not a fan of Holbrooke either although I tend to prefer the chamber music.

[PerfectWagnerite]

I understand and thanks for this thoughtful post. Let me just say: I've tried Bax on numerous occasions and the music just escapes me each time.

I think Bax's style lends itself very well to his tone poems. In fact taken as a whole I think his tone poems rank right up there with those of the very best like Strauss, Dvorak, Liszt etc.. I just don't know where he is going with most of his symphonies. I like 3 and 5 somewhat as I think they sound more structured than the others.