Dating or not dating.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

I've two tickets to hear Oundjian/RSNO performing Brahms 4 in Edinburgh on Friday. It doesn't appeal to my little blue haired friend and so I'm thinking of trying to get a date for it. I could get a date, but I'd like it to be a date with someone I don't already know and who is cool. There's next to no chance of success, but it's worth a try.

By virtue of wanting to hear B4 with you, aren't chances already above average that the person to agree to this would be cool?

Although I do have an experience where one of the lasses on my list when I have extra tickets was really awkward, argumentative, slightly weird, perhaps even rude... very subtle but very notably so.
And I thought to myself: My Gawd, what a nightmare; how can I screen better for something like that not to happen again. But the weird thing was: She couldn't have thought it was all that horrible -- although I was dead sure she'd taken a distinct disliking to me -- because she kept asking when I might have tickets again. Either she thought that that foul atmosphere was normal/not-that-bad or else worth the price of a free ticket. (Which would be sad.) But those are exceptions.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

From my perspective: I'm just looking at John's situation, and IMO the girl looks cute, but second-guessing it before he even knows her is just baffling. The ultimate, ideal way of connecting with a girl for me is for the girl to make the first move. That's happened a few times with me, but they either weren't attractive, or they were attractive and other reasons prevented anything from happening. I would certainly not throw away the opportunity, but give it a try for sure.

And it sounds like your reasons are a bit different than his, because he's mentioning emotional/intelligence difference, when that really has nothing to do with age, but everything to do with a person's capacity to learn and grow, which is exhibited usually at a young age. Sounds like the feeling like you're dating your younger sister turned you off too much to continue. Well... everyone has their own tastes. That wouldn't bother me much, personally.

Perhaps I associate youth with a curious and eager to learn mind and middle aged and older adults as more set in their ways? (and wow, do i prefer the former by a long shot)

Rinaldo has a really good point: Would he respect the other person as an equal. That's something hard to admit to oneself that one might not do... (because it doesn't mean not being nice. It means having a lingering patronizing attitude about the other person... no problem for a few years, perhaps, but ultimately fatal.) And there's the natural looking-up to the experience of an elder by a younger. Especially when they are eager to learn and bright and mature. Sadly, that bonus will wear off as they make their own life-experiences along the road. And then you better have something on equal footing and not too grossly divergent, because else even the originally happiest relationships can be in trouble. So while I am on the side of those who would suggest to 'go for it', I think a reason like this, coupled with that insight, is commendable, indeed. No point wasting either person's time and efforts in that case. Perfect mix of natural self-interest and being very unselfish, I'd say.

[NikF]

By virtue of wanting to hear B4 with you, aren't chances already above average that the person to agree to this would be cool?

Yes, although I'm taking the coolness inherent in a desire to hear Brahms 4 as a given.  The real cool part would be such as her driving us to the venue, during which she regales me with a long, detailed, drama laden and perhaps even breathless account of her quest to complete collecting the 60s HVK Brahms cycle, all the while surreptitiously (she thinks) constantly checking out my bicep vein from the corner of her eye. 

Although I do have an experience where one of the lasses on my list when I have extra tickets was really awkward, argumentative, slightly weird, perhaps even rude... very subtle but very notably so.
And I thought to myself: My Gawd, what a nightmare; how can I screen better for something like that not to happen again. But the weird thing was: She couldn't have thought it was all that horrible -- although I was dead sure she'd taken a distinct disliking to me -- because she kept asking when I might have tickets again. Either she thought that that foul atmosphere was normal/not-that-bad or else worth the price of a free ticket. (Which would be sad.) But those are exceptions.

Oh dear. Well, it could always be worse. For example, she could become bored and start kicking the seat in front of her and when the dude turns around to complain, she feigns innocence while pointing to you.

[greg]

Rinaldo has a really good point: Would he respect the other person as an equal. That's something hard to admit to oneself that one might not do... (because it doesn't mean not being nice. It means having a lingering patronizing attitude about the other person... no problem for a few years, perhaps, but ultimately fatal.)

I really don't get why so many people have a patronizing attitude to other people just because they are younger. "Lack of life experience," etc... certain things, maybe. But everyone has different experiences. Most people that are 16 have more dating experience than I do. Many 16 year-old have experiences living in rough neighborhoods or have experience using drugs that I've never tried (basically, all of them lol  ). So, in effect, even I could look up to someone who is 13 years younger than me for life knowledge for certain things.

If I were Rinaldo I'd see a 21-year old as an equal, with the exception that they almost for sure will have not started their career yet (unequal financially). But Rinaldo is probably much more comfortable identifying as his own age, whereas I just can't identify at all with my own age. I'm almost 30, but my subconscious mind will tell you I'm 20.

[Mirror Image]

If I were Rinaldo I'd see a 21-year old as an equal, with the exception that they almost for sure will have not started their career yet (unequal financially). But Rinaldo is probably much more comfortable identifying as his own age, whereas I just can't identify at all with my own age. I'm almost 30, but my subconscious mind will tell you I'm 20.

Rinaldo and I are at a certain point in our own lives where we see that woman who is 10-15 younger only has one benefit: good sex, but we're also both old enough to realize that the physical aspect of a relationship doesn't last if that's all that relationship is based on. Personally speaking, I crave a woman of substance and maturity and I have yet to speak to a woman who is 10-15 years younger than me who exhibits any of the afore mentioned qualities.

[vandermolen]

If I had thought that way 42 years ago, Mrs. Rock and I wouldn't be celebrating our 40th anniversary this month. Sometimes May-December relationships work out just fine. Give it a chance, John. One date couldn't hurt. If nothing else, you'll have, just like Ken, a story to tell the youngsters on the forum 

Sarge

I agree with Sarge on this one.

[Rinaldo]

I really don't get why so many people have a patronizing attitude to other people just because they are younger. "Lack of life experience," etc... certain things, maybe. But everyone has different experiences.

Exactly. 'Patronizing' wouldn't be the word I'd use but there's no denying we were at completely different stages in our lives. I've been through stuff, I've experienced love and loss that was previously unimaginable to me. Doesn't mean I'm a better or a smarter person, but it automatically sets me apart from someone who's 'new' to all this.

But Rinaldo is probably much more comfortable identifying as his own age, whereas I just can't identify at all with my own age. I'm almost 30, but my subconscious mind will tell you I'm 20.

Hence the 'people are different' point I was making. I don't doubt you could be perfectly happy with someone younger – I know couples just like that.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

I really don't get why so many people have a patronizing attitude to other people just because they are younger. "Lack of life experience," etc... certain things, maybe. But everyone has different experiences. Most people that are 16 have more dating experience than I do. Many 16 year-old have experiences living in rough neighborhoods or have experience using drugs that I've never tried (basically, all of them lol  ). So, in effect, even I could look up to someone who is 13 years younger than me for life knowledge for certain things.

It's not about dating experience, for starters... it's about the experience we value and wish to be valued. That's different to every person... although there are broadly analogous experiences in swatch of society that have shared values/backgrounds.  We are naturally attracted to people that share our values or look up to them; that aspire to similar experiences. And, vice versa, people who thus aspire will naturally be attracted to someone who has had these experiences.  Experiences outside that realm, meanwhile, don't count as much. I.e. someone who wishes to be liked for his acumen in carpentry and restoration of 17th century furniture and whose greatest pride is his wine cellar will not find any benefit in the excess of experience a  younger partner might have in living rough, shooting up, or sleeping around. (To use your examples, crassified.)

In any case, what comes out of such situations is that there's an element of admiration in one person for the other (for who they are, what they've done, where they are, what their knowledge or experience is). And with being admired (which feels pretty good) comes often an underlying feeling that I called "patronization" earlier; you might easily find a better name for it. The point is not that that's good or bad in and of itself. My point is that it inevitable. And those who realize there's that element to it (it need not be exclusively that; it need not be dooming the relationship) in their relationship are better off for having gotten wise to it. And THEN one can make a truly informed decision whether one wants to date a particular person of age difference or not. Uh-oh, "Person of Age Difference". I sense something for the "faddish phrases that annoy you" thread. But we have to establish it as a phrase, first. I wish that all significantly younger significant others from now on be referred to as "POAD". Or maybe "Person of Considerable Age Difference" / "POCAD". And "Person involved with a Person of considerable age difference" of course as "PIWAPOCAD".

[Mirror Image]

I feel like I should be posting "Hey guys guess what? there was this chick and I asked her out and we're officially a couple now. She's a huge fan of Schnebel, Stockhausen and Merzbow. We also "got busy" last night  It's all over now, I'm in happy land now" but I'm not....maybe give it a month? a year? a decade? a century? a millennia? a lifetime? two lifetimes? 

[greg]

I feel like I should be posting "Hey guys guess what? there was this chick and I asked her out and we're officially a couple now. She's a huge fan of Schnebel, Stockhausen and Merzbow. We also "got busy" last night  It's all over now, I'm in happy land now" but I'm not....maybe give it a month? a year? a decade? a century? a millennia? a lifetime? two lifetimes? 

A huge fan of Merzbow... I don't whether I'd be terrified or thrilled to meet such a girl. 

Rinaldo and I are at a certain point in our own lives where we see that woman who is 10-15 younger only has one benefit: good sex, but we're also both old enough to realize that the physical aspect of a relationship doesn't last if that's all that relationship is based on. Personally speaking, I crave a woman of substance and maturity and I have yet to speak to a woman who is 10-15 years younger than me who exhibits any of the afore mentioned qualities.

Not sure how you define "substance," since I think we'd all define that differently. But ok, I see what your tastes are.

Tbh I've never noticed a huge difference in maturity when comparing women of different ages. People tend to be the same no matter what their age is. The only difference is that older people are not going to party quite as much or go to clubs meant for younger people; instead, their priorities in life (mainly, managing a family) tend to make them appear more mature and responsible.

But if you see something I'm not seeing, then cool.

Exactly. 'Patronizing' wouldn't be the word I'd use but there's no denying we were at completely different stages in our lives. I've been through stuff, I've experienced love and loss that was previously unimaginable to me. Doesn't mean I'm a better or a smarter person, but it automatically sets me apart from someone who's 'new' to all this.

Hence the 'people are different' point I was making. I don't doubt you could be perfectly happy with someone younger – I know couples just like that.

Gotcha, good clarification. And very true. 

It's not about dating experience, for starters... it's about the experience we value and wish to be valued. That's different to every person... although there are broadly analogous experiences in swatch of society that have shared values/backgrounds.  We are naturally attracted to people that share our values or look up to them; that aspire to similar experiences. And, vice versa, people who thus aspire will naturally be attracted to someone who has had these experiences.  Experiences outside that realm, meanwhile, don't count as much. I.e. someone who wishes to be liked for his acumen in carpentry and restoration of 17th century furniture and whose greatest pride is his wine cellar will not find any benefit in the excess of experience a  younger partner might have in living rough, shooting up, or sleeping around. (To use your examples, crassified.)

Sure. I completely agree...

i'm about to fall asleep, so maybe this won't make sense...

but wasn't a point made earlier in this thread about people having different experiences at different ages? Why can't two people of different ages be into restoration of 17th century furniture? And why can't the older person look for someone, specifically, a little bit younger, who is into restoration of 17th century furniture?

confused 

We're building off of other people's points because of questions I'm asking, so I should probably stop asking questions. 

And "Person involved with a Person of considerable age difference" of course as "PIWAPOCAD".

Wow... ok 

[greg]

Literally nobody noticed it was a joke, I thought I was clear......  

I noticed...

[greg]

Something sparked inside of me tonight. I have a phone conversation with my friend almost every day, for a couple of hours. Somehow we ended up on the topic of physical fitness. He was talking about how he wants to lose 60 pounds or so, and how he has before, but just hasn't been in the routine of exercising.

I've gotten way too comfortable with how I look. I mean, I can go to the pool around the ladies and be very confident in how I look right now. But still, I could do better. Mainly, my abs could use a bit of work to really stand out. There is a pool practically in my backyard open to the whole neighborhood during the summer. Definitely something I could use the next month or two to prepare for.

The thing about being physically active is that most of the time I'm not into it. But when I do get into it, I get REALLY into it. Sometimes it just hits me how amazing it feels after a workout- but it's not a consistent feeling with every workout. The solution I think is that I should be doing some cardio each day after work, then eat and shower, THEN do some gaming for a few hours and go to sleep. Something to keep me hooked, since fitness is not something you can simply grind out (like you can with gaming, for example).

And like attracts like... girls into fitness usually look the best, so there's that.  (and it is also very healthy for the mind)

[Mirror Image]

Greg, always the one for the superficial....

[greg]

Greg, always the one for the superficial....

I'd like to see you roll your eyes after a few months of fitness training, feeling great physically (which leads to feeling great mentally) and catching the attention of cute girls. Unless you work, like, 70 hours a week, there's not much of an excuse to not work out at least a little.

I want to ask you something directly, because I've been curious about this: Would you have sex with someone just because you connected mentally with them (and were not attracted to at all physically)?

My perspective: the person you sleep with can be your best friend, but you don't sleep with your best friend.

Physically hot + mentally no connection: possible hookup, if you're into that; but not relationship material
Physically hot + mentally there's a connection: relationship material, possibly marriage material



Perhaps it is better to state it like that, rather than talk around in circles.

[Mirror Image]

I'd like to see you roll your eyes after a few months of fitness training, feeling great physically (which leads to feeling great mentally) and catching the attention of cute girls. Unless you work, like, 70 hours a week, there's not much of an excuse to not work out at least a little.

I want to ask you something directly, because I've been curious about this: Would you have sex with someone just because you connected mentally with them (and were not attracted to at all physically)?

My perspective: the person you sleep with can be your best friend, but you don't sleep with your best friend.

Physically hot + mentally no connection: possible hookup, if you're into that; but not relationship material
Physically hot + mentally there's a connection: relationship material, possibly marriage material



Perhaps it is better to state it like that, rather than talk around in circles.

I'm all for someone exercising and getting into shape if that's they want to do. That's not what my comment was about or why I did an eye roll. It's about your obsession with everything that's on the surface. Sure, there's nothing wrong with wanting someone who's attractive, but remember that attractiveness is more than surface sheen and it's also something that's different for everyone. As I've said many times now, what you're looking for, Greg, is not grounded in reality. Whatever is built in your mind, does not exist in the form in which you're seeking. Also, there's more than life than just sex. If you're looking for a pat on the back because you hooked up with some random woman you met from the internet that one time, then you're definitely not going to get it from me. What you lack is self-esteem and a grounding in what real women are like and what they could possibly offer you.

[Mirror Image]

As for my own endeavors, I've got a date with a woman I met at a grocery store today. I'm not sure when we'll get together, but she seems pretty sweet.

[greg]

I'm all for someone exercising and getting into shape if that's they want to do. That's not what my comment was about or why I did an eye roll. It's about your obsession with everything that's on the surface. Sure, there's nothing wrong with wanting someone who's attractive, but remember that attractiveness is more than surface sheen and it's also something that's different for everyone.

Okay. Could you just answer my question? It's a yes/no question, very straightforward.

Satisfy my curiosity, please? 

As I've said many times now, what you're looking for, Greg, is not grounded in reality.

Maybe. Anime girls don't really exist, after all. (kidding) 
But this is news to me that pretty women do not exist. Wow. I guess they were mirages the whole time. 

Whatever is built in your mind, does not exist in the form in which you're seeking. Also, there's more than life than just sex. If you're looking for a pat on the back because you hooked up with some random woman you met from the internet that one time, then you're definitely not going to get it from me. What you lack is self-esteem and a grounding in what real women are like and what they could possibly offer you.

Everything about this wrong. I'll just ignore it because you'll just keep repeating it for some reason even though it's wrong. Very fundamental misunderstanding.

[Mirror Image]

Okay. Could you just answer my question? It's a yes/no question, very straightforward.

Satisfy my curiosity, please? 


Maybe. Anime girls don't really exist, after all. (kidding) 
But this is news to me that pretty women do not exist. Wow. I guess they were mirages the whole time. 

Everything about this wrong. I'll just ignore it because you'll just keep repeating it for some reason even though it's wrong. Very fundamental misunderstanding.

Your question is a complicated one and is one I can't properly answer, hence why I initially ignored it, because, for me, attraction is a part of both a mental and physical marriage of ideals that make a person wholly desirable. For example, I couldn't sleep with a woman I wasn't mentally and physically attracted to in some way or another. It just wouldn't happen. For me, to be interested in a woman she has to have both desired qualities. It's easy to find a woman who's attractive. That's not a problem, but it's even more difficult for me to find one that I'm also mentally attracted to. Again, both of these ideals go hand-in-hand in my opinion, so your question does not consider that both ideals are what is, in the grand scheme of things, most desirable.

[greg]

Your question is a complicated one and is one I can't properly answer, hence why I initially ignored it, because, for me, attraction is a part of both a mental and physical marriage of ideals that make a person wholly desirable. For example, I couldn't sleep with a woman I wasn't mentally and physically attracted to in some way or another. It just wouldn't happen. For me, to be interested in a woman she has to have both desired qualities. It's easy to find a woman who's attractive. That's not a problem, but it's even more difficult for me to find one that I'm also mentally attracted to. Again, both of these ideals go hand-in-hand in my opinion, so your question does not consider that both ideals are what is, in the grand scheme of things, most desirable.

Ok, thanks for answering my question.

That is what I'm looking for, too. And I agree. Like I said many times before, both physical and mental is important. However, there are two points I'd like to make about this:

1) Saying that there is "no woman out there that can match my ideals." Could you clarify this by being as specific as possible? Because it seems we are looking for the same thing (a physical and mental connection), although with varying characteristics (like I'd be interested in an otaku whereas you'd like someone who introspective and mature, or something).

So how is it any different- that what I'm looking for is unrealistic whereas what you're looking for isn't? I think there are people out there that would be great for us, the only problem is that they are somewhat on the uncommon side/hard to find.


2) Why dismiss wanting to improve physique as shallow when at the same time admitting that the physical aspect is also important? You have to live up physically to what you are looking for physically, after all. But never have I ever said this is the only important thing, if that's what you mean.

[Mirror Image]

Ok, thanks for answering my question.

That is what I'm looking for, too. And I agree. Like I said many times before, both physical and mental is important. However, there are two points I'd like to make about this:

1) Saying that there is "no woman out there that can match my ideals." Could you clarify this by being as specific as possible? Because it seems we are looking for the same thing (a physical and mental connection), although with varying characteristics (like I'd be interested in an otaku whereas you'd like someone who introspective and mature, or something).

So how is it any different- that what I'm looking for is unrealistic whereas what you're looking for isn't? I think there are people out there that would be great for us, the only problem is that they are somewhat on the uncommon side/hard to find.


2) Why dismiss wanting to improve physique as shallow when at the same time admitting that the physical aspect is also important? You have to live up physically to what you are looking for physically, after all. But never have I ever said this is the only important thing, if that's what you mean.

I'll break it down for like this:

1. I never denied nor refuted that being attracted to a woman from a physical standpoint wasn't important. Stop putting words into my mouth. What I said was, for me, I could not just hook up with a woman because I was physically attracted to her, I have to be mentally attracted to her and, even then, I wouldn't sleep with her right away, because I'm not someone who 'has to have it' 24/7 like many guys do. No, that's not my thing nor is it a reflection of who I am or how I was raised.

2. What I said in terms of what you're looking is unrealistic because anyone with eyes can go back in this thread and in many of the threads where you post about women and see that you have some kind of idealized view of what you're attracted to when, in reality, you don't actually know what you like until that magic moment happens. Needless to say, it hasn't happened for you yet or else we wouldn't be talking about it.

3. I never dismissed trying to get into shape and exercising. This is, yet again, you putting words into my mouth and not reading what I actually wrote. What I said was that the physical nature of a relationship is only half the battle. Physical relationships never last and if they do, they're as faceless and meaningless anything that could have been imagined. Like I said, now I'm just a broken record, without the physical and mental connection, you have nothing. Period.

Anyway, as much as I'm ready for you not read what I wrote and just say whatever the hell you want (as you often do). It's dinner time. Peace out.