The Burka and the Burkini???

[Andante]

In the news lately for France's reaction to this beach/swimwear garment prompts me to ask what are your views.
I think when someone emigrates to another country they should adopt the local way of life but should an excuse be made for religion?
In the western world it is the rule not to cover the face what is the difference between  a Balaclava and a Burka just try walking into a bank with a Balaclava on.
There is an old saying "When in Rome do as the Romans do" 
So..............

[Rinaldo]

In the news lately for France's reaction to this beach/swimwear garment prompts me to ask what are your views.
I think when someone emigrates to another country they should adopt the local way of life but should an excuse be made for religion?

Discriminating against religion is not the 'local way' in Europe. Freedom of religion is. I object to anyone who wants to take our core values from us – in this case, the French government. The banning of burkinis (and the disgraceful enforcement of that ban) was a terrible decision that only advanced the extremists' cause ("See how they shame our women?").

Do as the Romans do? It's a friggin' swimsuit..

This has given women freedom, and they want to take that freedom away? So who is better, the Taliban or French politicians? They are as bad as each other.

'I created the burkini to give women freedom, not to take it away' by Aheda Zanetti

[mc ukrneal]

Who cares. Wear what you want. Gives another meaning to the term 'fashion police'.

[zamyrabyrd]

Banning the burkini is like closing the stable door after the horses have already bolted.
(actually the reverse)

[Andante]

Discriminating against religion is not the 'local way' in Europe. Freedom of religion is. I object to anyone who wants to take our core values from us – in this case, the French government. The banning of burkinis (and the disgraceful enforcement of that ban) was a terrible decision that only advanced the extremists' cause ("See how they shame our women?").

Do as the Romans do? It's a friggin' swimsuit..

The way the police treated the woman on the beach was disgraceful even if she was breaking the local law but she must have expected some sort of reaction and yes it's only a swimsuit to you but it was a two fingers up gesture to the law.

[Rinaldo]

The way the police treated the woman on the beach was disgraceful even if she was breaking the local law but she must have expected some sort of reaction and yes it's only a swimsuit to you but it was a two fingers up gesture to the law.

What you call 'two fingers up to the law', I'd call 'civil disobedience', but I suspect the woman involved didn't even know about the ban.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Forcing women how to dress is considered sexist in my books. Religious values on modesty don't seem harmful to anyone at all really, and the invention of the burkini was to help women who have these views of modesty to simply have a good time at the beach. It was created to give opportunity to people who will benefit from it, not limited to muslim women at all.

The 'French way of life' includes the freedom to practise one's religion outside of the workplace and government. Forcefully taking away one's freedom in one's own leisure time is not what I consider to be healthy for any society.

[Andante]

What you call 'two fingers up to the law', I'd call 'civil disobedience', but I suspect the woman involved didn't even know about the ban.

Did not know, what makes you say that? just pure stupidity if you don't know the rules, would you drink a beer in public in say Sudan or Libya ? civil disobedience really?

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Did not know, what makes you say that? just pure stupidity if you don't know the rules, would you drink a beer in public in say Sudan or Libya ? civil disobedience really?

Just as an aside, I don't even know the laws about drinking beer in public in my own country

[Rinaldo]

Did not know, what makes you say that? just pure stupidity if you don't know the rules, would you drink a beer in public in say Sudan or Libya ? civil disobedience really?

Yeah, really.

I'd probably check local customs / rules thoroughly before traveling to the countries you mention, but I once had a beer in a public park in Dublin and was reprimanded by a cop because I had no idea you can't do that. Actually, once I was scolded by a cop here in Prague, in my neighbourhood, because while drinking in public is allowed here, you can't drink near a school and I was near one (having no idea about that particular law either).

In any case, she wasn't on a vacation in a foreign country, she was at home, enjoying the beach the same way she could before that idiotic ban came into place.

[Ken B]

Yeah, really.

I'd probably check local customs / rules thoroughly before traveling to the countries you mention, but I once had a beer in a public park in Dublin and was reprimanded by a cop because I had no idea you can't do that. Actually, once I was scolded by a cop here in Prague, in my neighbourhood, because while drinking in public is allowed here, you can't drink near a school and I was near one (having no idea about that particular law either).

In any case, she wasn't on a vacation in a foreign country, she was at home, enjoying the beach the same way she could before that idiotic ban came into place.

Was the punishment you received as severe as it might be in Saudi Arabia? That's Andante's point I think. Civil disobedience as protest only works in certain kinds of societies, which quail at certain enforcements. That is indeed what happened in this case in France, where the French were embarrassed by the enforcement of the law.

The examples you cite of your own lawbreaking were not civil disobedience btw, as you did not know the law.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Was the punishment you received as severe as it might be in Saudi Arabia? That's Andante's point I think. Civil disobedience as protest only works in certain kinds of societies, which quail at certain enforcements. That is indeed what happened in this case in France, where the French were embarrassed by the enforcement of the law.

The examples you cite of your own lawbreaking were not civil disobedience btw, as you did not know the law.

This is true, and civil disobedience is usually what is remembered in the most positive light when looking back on periods of oppression and inequality.

[Rinaldo]

The examples you cite of your own lawbreaking were not civil disobedience btw, as you did not know the law.

Should've worded it better - I certainly didn't imply they were.

[Holden]

It's all about integration isn't it. When you move to a new country you get a choice to either support the local values or deny them. Our values here in Australia have very little to do with religion and more to do with being an inclusive society. As soon as one group decides to go against what we stand for then they will certainly raise the ire of the populace as they are questioning how we do things here. This gives rise to the "if you don't like it then leave" philosophy.

Australia has a history of welcoming people from other parts of the world that started with Italians, Poles, Hungarians, etc in the 1950s. Those groups are now proud Austrlians as are thir children. They live under Australian law, contribute to Australian society yet are free to celebrate old traditions provided they don't transgress the rule of law. Go to Rome and do as the Romans do.

[Rinaldo]

It's all about integration isn't it.

It's all about the fear of Islam.

When you move to a new country you get a choice to either support the local values or deny them.

I don't see how a swimsuit designed for modesty denies any European values.

[Ken B]

It's all about the fear of Islam.

I don't see how a swimsuit designed for modesty denies any European values.

The expectation that women dress "modestly" does. That's really what this is about, and the law was a reaction, misguided, to the attacks on women who dressed "immodestly" as you might describe it on those beaches.

[Rinaldo]

The expectation that women dress "modestly" does. That's really what this is about, and the law was a reaction, misguided, to the attacks on women who dressed "immodestly" as you might describe it on those beaches.

Was it? I wasn't aware of any attacks on non-muslim beachgoers, nor any concerted effort of the French muslim population to enforce their views onto others.

Anyway, I'm just saying that modesty can form an important part of someone's faith (whether he / she is a muslim or, for example, an Amish) and as long as it's that person's choice (obviously, religion shouldn't override universal human rights), it doesn't deny anyone anything.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

The expectation that women dress "modestly" does. That's really what this is about, and the law was a reaction, misguided, to the attacks on women who dressed "immodestly" as you might describe it on those beaches.

Any expectations on how women should dress is yet another example of the male dominance in many cultures these days. If a woman wants to dress modestly, who are we to say she should not? The only case where values based on religion should be criticised are when they result in harm. I don't see how a piece of cloth worn in one's leisure time is against any European values........

Maybe it's the fact that it was invented by a Muslim woman! Well guess what, the first library was established by Muslim woman as well......i don't see a problem there at all. Different Muslims have different views on modesty, information, personal values, knowledge, teaching etc just as everyone else in the world does. If the western world has a problem with pieces of cloth worn for personal reasons  (yes, religious values of one's own modesty are 'personal reasons') then the western world will simply have to get over it.

Liberté, égalité, fraternité.

[Ken B]

Any expectations on how women should dress is yet another example of the male dominance in many cultures these days. If a woman wants to dress modestly, who are we to say she should not? The only case where values based on religion should be criticised are when they result in harm. I don't see how a piece of cloth worn in one's leisure time is against any European values........

Maybe it's the fact that it was invented by a Muslim woman! Well guess what, the first library was established by Muslim woman as well......i don't see a problem there at all. Different Muslims have different views on modesty, information, personal values, knowledge, teaching etc just as everyone else in the world does. If the western world has a problem with pieces of cloth worn for personal reasons  (yes, religious values of one's own modesty are 'personal reasons') then the western world will simply have to get over it.

Liberté, égalité, fraternité.

Tell me. When was the library of Alexandia built. Dates BH or AH are fine. 

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Tell me. When was the library of Alexandia built. Dates BH or AH are fine. 

Pardon me, I meant the first university library! (And incidentally the oldest university still running)

Edit: I should probably take some inspiration from jihad to lower my voice and be more respectful on these forums so I don't blurt out the wrong information