Mahler's 6th Symphony

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

A-S
or
S-A

[SharpEleventh]

The scherzo is too similar in mood to the first movement to follow it immediately. On the other hand the andante has a good contrasting mood just before the long turbulent finale. So how about skipping the scherzo entirely? Though it's pretty good for a scherzo (which is not saying much), it's still the weakest movement.

[Sergeant Rock]

The scherzo is too similar in mood to the first movement to follow it immediately.

Which is exactly why it should follow the first movement. It is essentially a parody of the opening movement,. It uses, and varies, some of the thematic material and "could be considered an example of developing variations, the devise defined and used by Schoenberg". Moving it to a position after the Andante destroys that. The key relationships are more logical with a S-A order.  And too, 4, 5 and 7 have the Scherzo before the slow movement. Why break up the set? 

Henry-Louis de La Grange thinks Mahler was simply frightened by his original conception and changed it for emotional, not logical reasons. I agree with that. My vote goes to S-A. I really think that lyrical break before the long, long finale is essential.

[Jo498]

Philologically it seems by now fairly clear that Mahler wanted andante scherzo.
But I also think it works better with the scherzo as a "parody" or gloss on the first movement (prefigured by Beethoven's 9th, of course) and the andante as central quiet point between two "nightmares", namely first movement + scherzo and the finale.

[ritter]

S - A, no doubt.

Furtunately evil seems to be getting the upper hand in this instance...

[PerfectWagnerite]

S - A, no doubt.

Furtunately evil seems to be getting the upper hand in this instance...

Seconded. I am at a point if I see Andante first I will not buy that recording. It just throws the balance of the whole work off. The work is structured so that the rather brutal first movement and the equally grinding Scherzo adds up to about the same length in time as the final movement. The Andante just nicely separates the two halves of the symphony so to speak. Putting it right after the opening movement just throws the balance of the whole work off.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Seconded. I am at a point if I see Andante first I will not buy that recording. It just throws the balance of the whole work off. The work is structured so that the rather brutal first movement and the equally grinding Scherzo adds up to about the same length in time as the final movement. The Andante just nicely separates the two halves of the symphony so to speak. Putting it right after the opening movement just throws the balance of the whole work off.

I second this post, although with a recording it doesn't matter, since you can play the tracks in the order you want.

With the Barbirolli recording which is one of my favorites, the original LP set was issued Andante first, but the CDs were issued Scherzo first, apparently because that was the order followed by Barb in most of his public performances. But it's the same performance.

[PerfectWagnerite]

I second this post, although with a recording it doesn't matter, since you can play the tracks in the order you want.

With the Barbirolli recording which is one of my favorites, the original LP set was issued Andante first, but the CDs were issued Scherzo first, apparently because that was the order followed by Barb in most of his public performances. But it's the same performance.

Then Barb's producer was a wise man

I think I must have 15 plus M6ths on cd. and I don't think any of them has the Scherzo 2nd. Is this a recent thing ?

later edited - sorry I meant none have the ANDATE second.

[Johnnie Burgess]

Then Barb's producer was a wise man

I think I must have 15 plus M6ths on cd. and I don't think any of them has the Scherzo 2nd. Is this a recent thing ?

I only have 5  but 4 of the them has the scherzo 2nd.

[Sergeant Rock]

Then Barb's producer was a wise man

I think I must have 15 plus M6ths on cd. and I don't think any of them has the Scherzo 2nd.

Is that a typo, PW? Most recordings have the Scherzo second. A few that don't: Rattle, Mitropoulos, Jansons, Eschenbach.

Sarge

[PerfectWagnerite]

Is that a typo, PW? Most recordings have the Scherzo second. A few that don't: Rattle, Mitropoulos, Jansons, Eschenbach.

Sarge

oops sorry I meant none have the ANDANTE second.

I don't have any of those 4, none really struck me as really essential M6 listening.

I have the Barb that was mentioned earlier on CD plus a bunch of others, most as complete or almost complete cycles by Bernstein, Tennstedt, Haitink, Gielen, Maazel, Sinopoli, Neumann, Inbal, Bertini, Kubelik, Abravanel, Solti, Abbado, Levine etc...

Not sure whether Zinman has the Andante second, I seem to recall he does but I sold that set.

[Drasko]

Quite a few of more recent recordings (most?) go with Andante-Scherzo: Abbado, Ivan Fischer, Gergiev, Stenz, Ashkenazy, Luisi, Harding, Simone Young, Vronsky.

It comes down to fashion it seems.

[Sergeant Rock]

Quite a few of more recent recordings (most?) go with Andante-Scherzo: Abbado, Ivan Fischer, Gergiev, Stenz, Ashkenazy, Luisi, Harding, Simone Young, Vronsky.

It comes down to fashion it seems.

That, and the new Critical Edition that was published in our new century that reversed the previous Critical Edition. Since then more conductors have been following the new edition...as wrong-headed as it is 

Sarge

[PerfectWagnerite]

That, and the new Critical Edition that was published in our new century that reversed the previous Critical Edition. Since then more conductors have been following the new edition...as wrong-headed as it is 

Sarge

Ugh! Another example of shoddy scholarship and conductors who basically ran out of ideas to say about this piece so they have to figure out something different.

[amw]

Fine with both. It's still basically the same piece.

My favourite performance of M6 uses the 1904 order so I guess very slight preference in the sense that's the one I listen to most often. On the other hand I've reversed the order of inner movements in that performance before and it still works fine and has equal emotional effect. (Not something I should really do, seeing as it's a live recording, but whatevs <_<)

The 1910 order, as far as I can tell, is legitimately Mahler's final thoughts on the work; there's very little proof that he changed his mind later (only Alma's notoriously unreliable word) and that's the order he conducted the movements in himself. On the other hand, my preference tends to be for composer's original thoughts over their later ones, as a rule. There's something about that initial period of creative conception that tends to make first versions more characteristic of the composer's personality. In this case, no big deal since very little music is actually changed.

[mszczuj]

My heart is probably for Scherzo/Andante but it is not the matter of feelings as we have the evidence. Alma said: First Scherzo then Andante. So there should be no doubts: it must be Andante/Scherzo.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Tbh I am fine with both as well as long as I enjoy the performance. I am not anal about things like the number of hammer blows or the movement order, but I think seeing it live in A-S format I have been convinced that it works.

As for the notion that the scherzo parodies that first movement and thus should be placed second, well even with a slow movement separating them I can still pick up on this parody after the andante.........

[Mahlerian]

Tbh I am fine with both as well as long as I enjoy the performance. I am not anal about things like the number of hammer blows or the movement order, but I think seeing it live in A-S format I have been convinced that it works.

I've also heard it live in that order, and found it worked well even though I'm fully evil myself.

As for the notion that the scherzo parodies that first movement and thus should be placed second, well even with a slow movement separating them I can still pick up on this parody after the andante.........

In my opinion, the Scherzo acts as a reversal of what had just happened in the first movement.  Placing it second will reinforce the Major-Minor motif found throughout the work.  I think the Andante leads better into the finale as well.  On the other hand, placing the Andante second does still undermine the first movement's coda by jumping a tritone in key and shifting immediately from extrovert triumph to introspective reflection.

[PerfectWagnerite]

My heart is probably for Scherzo/Andante but it is not the matter of feelings as we have the evidence. Alma said: First Scherzo then Andante. So there should be no doubts: it must be Andante/Scherzo.

Who gives a hoot what Alma said.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

I've also heard it live in that order, and found it worked well even though I'm fully evil myself.

In my opinion, the Scherzo acts as a reversal of what had just happened in the first movement.  Placing it second will reinforce the Major-Minor motif found throughout the work.  I think the Andante leads better into the finale as well.  On the other hand, placing the Andante second does still undermine the first movement's coda by jumping a tritone in key and shifting immediately from extrovert triumph to introspective reflection.

STAHP! You're convincing me to rejoin the dark side of sith like yourself who prefer S-A to A-S!