Dutch Composers

[Thom]

We hope you'll like it. To be frank, I was not at all focused on Dutch serious music but since I have listened to several Dutch composers, thanks to the generous contributions by fellow forum members, I have found reason to reconsider my opinion of the quality in general of this music. It is not at all bad, Röntgen, Pijper, Badings, Dopper, Diepenbrock, to name a few.

Th.

[Christo]

Lex van Delden, Symphony no. 3 `Facetten' Op. 45 (1955)  [14:10]
Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, George Szell, live recording (mono), 15 December 1957

http://www.mediafire.com/?igvdkldfxtu

After the Eight for Strings, posted below by Thom, the Third is probably the only other available recording of any of the eight symphonies by Lex van Delden (1919-1988), another member of the `lost generation'. Personally, I'm still less overwhelmed than by Léon Orthel - but I would be happy if all of you take a totally different view. No doubt, we'll be posting his rather Bartók-like Musica Sinfonica (1967) and another version of the more Martinu-like Piccolo Concerto (1960) as well. But we better start with exploring both of the available symphonies ...

`Sinfonia no. 3 is subtitled Facets to indicate the technical procedure that is the basis of this work (which like Musica Sinfonica has no breaks between the movements): the many aspects of the single theme are looked at from various angles, thus showing, like a cut diamond, ever differing facets. The thematic ideas are derived from a series of 21 notes, of which the 11th links two groups of ten each. These two groups are related in so far that the first four notes of group b, for instance, are the inversion of the `tail' of group a, and the end of the series in its turn is the inversion of the very beginning. Not all 21 notes are used in every movement of the symphony. The opening Lento, for example, makes use of just four notes of the long theme, which in the course of the composition returns in various fragmentary shapes, hightlighting certain parts of the tonal sequence in succession; its fully developed, definitive form is only revealed towards the end of the piece, played by the lower strings. The work was commissioned by the Holland Festival, completed on April 4th, 1955 and premiered at the 1955 Holland Festival. '   (Peter Bree)

[Henk]

Yesterday I bought a cd of Badings, but I don't like it, it's Nazi music I think.

I also bought:

Peter-Jan Wagemans - De zevende symphonie, De stad en de engel (NRPO/Leenders,Hamel)
(The seventh symphony, the city and the angel)

I think this last one is a great work, though I've to listen to it yet.

[Harry]

Yesterday I bought a cd of Badings, but I don't like it, it's Nazi music I think.

I am profoundly shocked by this statement Henk!
And please explain, what is exactly Nazi-Music?

[Henk]

I am profoundly shocked by this statement Henk!
And please explain, what is exactly Nazi-Music?

It shocked me too, I want to bring this cd to the store again. It just sounds that way. Badings was assigned by the nazi's to be the director of a museum.
If you just listen to it maybe you like it, you just notice there's something strange with it, but when you listen with the thought it could be nazi music, you hear it's nazi music.

Henk

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I am profoundly shocked by this statement Henk!
And please explain, what is exactly Nazi-Music?

I am not shocked, simply interested - which CD, Henk, and how does 'Nazi music' sound? Now it's just an assertion, based on extra-musical knowledge.

Btw, I remember composer and critic Konrad Boehmer once remarking, regarding Wagner's anti-Jewish sentiment, there are no such things as 'antisemitic notes'. The reverse might be true, too. Only if a work is a setting of passages of 'Mein kampf' or 'Der Stürmer', is 'Nazi music' a valid characterization!

Just saw your answer, Henk. But I am still none the wiser...

[Henk]

I am not shocked, simply interested - which CD, Henk, and how does 'Nazi music' sound? Now it's just an assertion, based on extra-musical knowledge.

You're right.

Btw, I remember composer and critic Konrad Boehmer once remarking, regarding Wagner's anti-Jewish sentiment, there are no such things as 'antisemitic notes'. The reverse might be true, too. Only if a work is a setting of passages of 'Mein kampf' or 'Der Stürmer', is 'Nazi music' a valid characterization!

Just saw your answer, Henk. But I am still not the wiser...

Just listen to Badings a bit if you want to know.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Then you first have to tell me which Badings CD it was. 

[Henk]

Then you first have to tell me which Badings CD it was. 

This one:


I will keep it, just because it's interesting. I also have Kagel, Lachenmann and Rihm, which I think are only interesting also.

[Harry]

This one:


I will keep it, just because it's interesting. I also have Lachenmann and Rihm, which I only think are interesting.

Right, I have that one, but it beats me, where the Nazi connection is.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

There are several Badings scores on page 4 of this thread, uploaded to MediaFire. I'll give Symphonies 2 and 3 a listen later today.

[Harry]

I can not really believe, that you are to investigate into this accusation of Badings symphonies being Nazi music.

[Dundonnell]

We have been here before-see the thread on German composers during the period 1933-1945.

I also have the new CPO recording of the three Badings symphonies. The first of these-Badings' 2nd Symphony was written in 1932. The other two date from the 1950s and 1960s respectively.

Are we entitled to call his music 'Nazi'? I do think that this is more than somewhat unfair. I don't know enough about Badings's position during the German occupation of the Netherlands except that he accepted the position as Director of the Conservatory in the Hague after the dismissal of Sam Dresden and that he accepted commissions for music from German orchestras. It is very difficult for an outsider to appreciate the depth of feeling of those living in an occupied country or-even more so-those who participated in resistance movements towards those who were perceived to collaborate with occupying forces. Badings suffered-and perhaps deserved to suffer-a considerable amount of public neglect in the Netherlands after the war. Whether this neglect should be permanent could be debated till the end of time.

I can dissociate the man's record from his music and listen to it with appreciation. Others may not and I can understand that.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I can not really believe, that you are to investigate into this accusation of Badings symphonies being Nazi music.

Of course not. I simply want to listen to the music. Whether there is anything to the accusation, I can't tell. And I have already said what I think of 'antisemitic' vs 'Nazi' notes...

This is what I wrote on the Richard Wetz thread (and the same goes for Badings):

Most artists are conformists. Like most human beings they adapt to the status quo, because they want fame, recognition, attention, a position, an income (which means that if the times are rebellious, the artists are rebellious, when the times are pious, so are the artists...). It would be wonderful if artists had as firm a grasp of their art as of the times they live in. But they very often haven't.

I personally admire those artists the most who are masterly in their works and in their lives. But I am always interested in finding a human being in a work of art. That's why I can listen to Wetz.

[Henk]

Right, I have that one, but it beats me, where the Nazi connection is.

Well, Harry, I'm an intellectual and you are not, that's the explanation .

[Harry]

Well, Harry, I'm an intellectual and you are not, that's the explanation .

Nice try, but I don't think so.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

This is what I wrote in another thread:

Henk Badings, Second Symphony (1932) (Schaefer, Dutch Radio Symphony Orchestra)

The first Badings I ever listened to. The work is rather grim and relentless, the orchestration not very colourful. The martial, fanfare-like main theme of the first movement is stronger in its gesture than in its substance. There are a few flashes of poetry, though, which I hope will be more in evidence in other symphonies of his (this is an early one). So this Badings symphony won't be my last.


(To Henk - you really have to define what you mean by 'Nazi music'. I can't hear it. The Nazis would have most likely regarded this work as 'entartet'!)

[The new erato]

This is what I wrote in another thread:

Henk Badings, Second Symphony (1932) (Schaefer, Dutch Radio Symphony Orchestra)

The first Badings I ever listened to. The work is rather grim and relentless, the orchestration not very colourful. The martial, striding main theme of the first movement is stronger in its gesture than in its substance. There are a few flashes of poetry, though, which I hope will be more in evidence in other symphonies of his (this is an early one). So this Badings symphony won't be my last.


(To Henk - you really have to define what you mean by 'Nazi music'. I can't hear it. The Nazis would have most likely regarded this work as 'entartet'!)

I finished listening to this disc  (cpo) 10 minutes ago.

Interestingly the symphony nr 2 reminded me of the music of Harald Sæverud (1897 - 1992), a contemporary of Badings (1907 - 1987), associated with the Norwegian resistance. Sæverud was also living in the near vicinity of me, along with Grieg, Geirr Tveitt and Fartein Valen.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I finished listening to this disc  (cpo) 10 minutes ago.

Interestingly the symphony nr 2 reminded me of the music of Harald Sæverud (1897 - 1992), a contemporary of Badings (1907 - 1987), associated with the Norwegian resistance. Sæverud was also living in the near vicinity of me, along with Grieg, Geirr Tveitt and Fartein Valen.

Nice one, Erato... So Sæverud wrote politically-correct music (avant la lettre, of course) that happens to sound a lot like Badings! 

[The new erato]

Nice one, Erato... So Sæverud wrote politically-correct music (avant la lettre, of course) that happens to sound a lot like Badings! 

Yes, go figure. Of course that was just an impression based on an initial hearing of the symphony but it was very vlear in my mind at the time of listening.