Dutch Composers

[pjme]

"For an unbiased and correct evaluation of Badings position during the second WW, do read Leo Samama's " Zeventig jaar Nederlandse muziek - 1915 -1985" (Amsterdam Querido 1986) - pages 174 - 179.
It is clear that only few ( professional) musicians  did actively refuse to work during the German occupation ( Mengelberg, Herman Krebbers, Cor de Groot, Eduard Flipse, Jan Koetsier, Paul Van Kempen...et al.,accepted commissions, continued to perform...) - accepting that in doing so,  they would NOT earn a living.

Badings is described as an overly ambitious, somewhat naive and spiteful figure..who saw "opportunities"!

Peter

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Badings is described as an overly ambitious, somewhat naive and spiteful figure..who saw "opportunities"!

Well, that makes sense. Most artists are only human.

[pjme]

In Samama's book (page 176) one can even read that Badings helped Sem Dresden's wife ( Sem Dresden was a Jewish composer -  condemned to forced labour) in getting work and actually managed later to have mr. Dresden relieved of digging trenches....

But of course, this does not diminish the fact that Badings ( possibly "inspired" by his wife!) collaborated with the Germans.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

In Samama's book (page 176) one can even read that Badings helped Sem Dresden's wife ( Sem Dresden was a Jewish composer -  condemned to forced labour) in getting work and actually managed later to have mr. Dresden relieved of digging trenches....

But of course, this does not diminish the fact that Badings ( possibly "inspired" by his wife!) collaborated with the Germans.

Well, Badings was obviously a complex individual - I hope the same goes for his music!

[Harry]

A new release from CPO, Rontgen.......which I ordered.

[Dundonnell]

A new release from CPO, Rontgen.......which I ordered.

Thanks for that info', Harry!

CPO continues the good work for Dutch composers. Looking forward to further releases of Badings and van Gilse.

Still to be released by CPO this year are Bischoff's Symphony No.2, Bruno Walter's Symphony No.1, Felix Weingartner's Symphony No.6, Emil von Reznicek's Symphony No.1 and Saygun's Piano Concertos Nos. 1 and 2. One a month?

[Harry]

Thanks for that info', Harry!

CPO continues the good work for Dutch composers. Looking forward to further releases of Badings and van Gilse.

Still to be released by CPO this year are Bischoff's Symphony No.2, Bruno Walter's Symphony No.1, Felix Weingartner's Symphony No.6, Emil von Reznicek's Symphony No.1 and Saygun's Piano Concertos Nos. 1 and 2. One a month?

I eargerly await the Bischoff, Weingartner since I collect him, Reznicek, but I pass on Sayguns piano concertos, and Walter, but then again, I have no idea what to expect from him, do you know him D?

[Dundonnell]

I eargerly await the Bischoff, Weingartner since I collect him, Reznicek, but I pass on Sayguns piano concertos, and Walter, but then again, I have no idea what to expect from him, do you know him D?

Not sure which 'him' you are referring to-Saygun or Walter?

If it was Bruno Walter, then no I have not heard anything composed by him. I would assume however that his 1st Symphony(first performed in 1909) would be in the Central European tradition, probably influenced by Walter's hero, Mahler, and not dissimilar(?) to Weingartner's music.

If, on the other hand, you are referring to Saygun then- yes I do know his five symphonies, violin, viola and cello concertos. These are all fine works by the most distinguished of Turkish composers. To my ear they do not sound particularly Turkish compositions. Saygun was obviously influenced by mid European music-Bartok and Hindemith come to mind. He is worth exploring.

[Harry]

Not sure which 'him' you are referring to-Saygun or Walter?

If it was Bruno Walter, then no I have not heard anything composed by him. I would assume however that his 1st Symphony(first performed in 1909) would be in the Central European tradition, probably influenced by Walter's hero, Mahler, and not dissimilar(?) to Weingartner's music.

If, on the other hand, you are referring to Saygun then- yes I do know his five symphonies, violin, viola and cello concertos. These are all fine works by the most distinguished of Turkish composers. To my ear they do not sound particularly Turkish compositions. Saygun was obviously influenced by mid European music-Bartok and Hindemith come to mind. He is worth exploring.

Sorry for the confusion, I was indeed referring too Bruno Walter, and after your story I will check him out.
Saygun is represented in my collection, by his symphonies, violin, viola, and cello concertos too, so I am sorry about this confusion too, but you summed his characteristics up very nicely. I am not a great admirer of piano concertos, and that is the reason why I will probably pass on Saygun's concertos, unless you tell me, that they are earth shattering! 

[Dundonnell]

Sorry for the confusion, I was indeed referring too Bruno Walter, and after your story I will check him out.
Saygun is represented in my collection, by his symphonies, violin, viola, and cello concertos too, so I am sorry about this confusion too, but you summed his characteristics up very nicely. I am not a great admirer of piano concertos, and that is the reason why I will probably pass on Saygun's concertos, unless you tell me, that they are earth shattering! 

For a brief but informative review of Leon Botstein's American performance of Walter's 1st symphony-

http://www.robertaonthearts.com/id233.html

[Harry]

For a brief but informative review of Leon Botstein's American performance of Walter's 1st symphony-

http://www.robertaonthearts.com/id233.html

Thank you very much for this Dundonnell!

[jowcol]

I just wanted to bump this thread, and thank all of you on it for this discussion.  I found this thread while googling-- which is why I've joined this forum.  It's so great to see the combination of scholarship and passion for music.

Orthel's THird Symphony and the Invocation for Orchestra just kill me!!  Stick a fork in me, I'm done!  I've discovered a lot of great music since I started prowling this forum (my wallet may not forgive me) but these two in particularly really nailed me! 

I don't have much to add, but wanted to thank all of you for sharing....

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I just wanted to bump this thread, and thank all of you on it for this discussion.  I found this thread while googling-- which is why I've joined this forum.  It's so great to see the combination of scholarship and passion for music.

Orthel's THird Symphony and the Invocation for Orchestra just kill me!!  Stick a fork in me, I'm done!  I've discovered a lot of great music since I started prowling this forum (my wallet may not forgive me) but these two in particularly really nailed me! 

I don't have much to add, but wanted to thank all of you for sharing....

Thanks for the nice remarks! What about his Second Symphony and the Scherzo No. 2, my personal favourites (plus the Evocazione)?

[Christo]

I just wanted to bump this thread, and thank all of you on it for this discussion.  I found this thread while googling-- which is why I've joined this forum.  It's so great to see the combination of scholarship and passion for music.

Orthel's THird Symphony and the Invocation for Orchestra just kill me!!  Stick a fork in me, I'm done!  I've discovered a lot of great music since I started prowling this forum (my wallet may not forgive me) but these two in particularly really nailed me! 

I don't have much to add, but wanted to thank all of you for sharing....

Welcome in the club jowcol!

Apart from Jezetha, you're only the second one to respond that positive to Léon Orthel. As you might have read, I personally couldn't suppress my enthusiasm for his music, a rather recent discovery for me. I regard his Second Symphony a genuine masterpiece, but like the other ones very much as well, and share all of your enthusiasm. Great that a random googling act brought us here together!

[Dundonnell]

Welcome in the club jowcol!

Apart from Jezetha, you're only the second one to respond that positive to Léon Orthel. As you might have read, I personally couldn't suppress my enthusiasm for his music, a rather recent discovery for me. I regard his Second Symphony a genuine masterpiece, but like the other ones very much as well, and share all of your enthusiasm. Great that a random googling act brought us here together!

Oh Johan/Christo....mea culpa..if I have not, as seems probable, expressed my admiration for Orthel previously and my thanks to my Dutch friends, including of course yourself, in making me aware of this fine composer I grovel in apology

I have-as an act of very pleasant penance-just listened again to the 3rd and 4th symphonies and that powerful little piece Evocazione with its stabbing chords and drum rolls.. I would have listened to the 2nd symphony and Scherzo No.2 but I seem, very stupidly, to have muddled up the burned discs with these pieces on them! All is not lost however-I still have these works on my pc and will burn fresh copies

The Third Symphony is a very fine work indeed! It is so obviously a wartime piece full of sadness and a degree of bitterness but most moving. The string passages frequently remind me of the Vaughan Williams of the Pastoral Symphony or the last movement of the 6th. i am not a great fan of romantic piano concertos and the 4th Symphony is a Piano Concerto in all but name but it is also a good work and the closing pages in particular impress me.

It is so sad to re-read the first page of the booklet of the Etcetera disc containing the 3rd and 4th symphonies and reflect on the lost generation to which Orthel belongs. Composers who, apparently, were frequently performed in the 40s, 50s and 60s but are now forgotten. The extraordinary fact that the Germans required all Dutch orchestras to have at least 20% of their concerts devoted to Dutch music during the war! (Can we extend this morsel of gratitude to an occupying power?? I should not and will not express an opinion!). The fact that every Dutch orchestra around 1950 had a Dutch conductor who regularly performed Dutch music. Plus ca change indeed!

My sincere apologies for not commenting on Orthel sooner!

[Dundonnell]

Léon Orthel, Scherzi III per orchestra a tutti mani &c. (1961)   [11:11]
Limburg Symphony Orchestra, André Rieu (père), rec. AVRO Radio, 31 October 1961.

http://www.mediafire.com/?jfxxm22zgtn

`Léon Orthel (1905-1985) wrote his virtuoso Scherzi III, `homage to the memory of my uncle', as a result of a commission for an opening piece for the first Dutch Paralympics. Orthel took inspiration from the tradition of the yearly festival of Lent, widely celebrated in the southern provinces. The premiere was conducted by Andre Rieu during the closing days of the festival with the leading orchestra of the region. The rather filmic and rhythmic introduction is followed by a long lyric passage mainly in the lower strings, which is so characteristic of Orchel's orchestral writing. It is followed by a warlike march leading to a second climax, after which the work is concluded by references to the opening material. The composer was also inspired by reading Rilke's Fasching and on seeing Hieronymus Bosch' paintings, originating in the same region.'   (Wytze Klukhuhn)

(MUCH) LATER EDIT: Beware of this! After all the postings of Orthel's music, I decided to add a practical joke, as could have been deduced from the nonsense title and commentary. In reality, the music is the Estonian composer's, Veljo Tormis' Ouverture No. 2 (1958) - which reminds me a bit of Orthel's style.

Tormis' work is to be found at this twofer:

                         

   

   

What!! You mean...I....Oh Johan/Christo

You had me fooled! I burned this onto a disc in the middle of other Orthel pieces. (That is before you sent me a further copy of genuinely Orthel.)
"...as could be deduced..."?? Well not by this gullible idiot

[Lilas Pastia]

Hemmm  . Just happened to see this particular thread. My knowledge of dutch composers' works is woefully limited. I would welcome a few suggestions of readily available suggestions. My preferences are towards orchestral works. So far I only have discs of Juriaan Andriessen, Keuris and de Meij (plus a few classical era ones).

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Hemmm  . Just happened to see this particular thread. My knowledge of dutch composers' works is woefully limited. I would welcome a few suggestions of readily available suggestions. My preferences are towards orchestral works. So far I only have discs of Juriaan Andriessen, Keuris and de Meij (plus a few classical era ones).

Why don't you try Matthijs Vermeulen (1888-1967), the great outsider of Dutch music? He wrote seven symphonies, chamber works and songs. In this folder you'll find historic recordings of his first two symphonies (conducted by Haitink and Van Beinum respectively), and his wonderful Passacaille et Cortège, incidental music to a play by Dutch poet Martinus Nijhoff. The Second (1919-1920) is Vermeulen's Sacre...

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=191b3b8d4da3c14f4012e8015643d9c8f9cdc4cdc5907fdc

There is a Vermeulen thread, too:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,5426.0.html

[Lilas Pastia]

Thanks, Johan!

There seem to be two files each for the symphonies. Are they different peformances, or are they in two files?

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Thanks, Johan!

There seem to be two files each for the symphonies. Are they different peformances, or are they in two files?

Yes, they are all different - those files where no conductor is mentioned are studio performances. I'll edit the info later today. Sorry.

Symfonie Nr 2, 'Prélude a la nouvelle journée'.mp3 - live recording Rotterdam Philharmonic, Otto Ketting (10 February 1978)

Symfonie Nr 1, 'Symphonia carminum'.mp3 - studio recording Rotterdam Philharmonic, Roelof van Driesten (24 June 1985)