Dutch Composers

[vandermolen]

I bought that set a couple of years ago and do not like it.  0:) ...although these works can be classified as very strange and unusual...

Van Domselaer and Mondriaan were friends for a while ( ca 1914-15) but, appartently, they broke up because Mondriaan did not like Van Domselaer's music. In the booklet one can read : His music is now nothing but dissonance.I find it damned ugly and said so. He wants to play God, but it's tough ,you know, having been such good friends"
Somewhere within that craggy first symphony lurks something like Ruggles' Sun treader - but ,afaik, the work is constructed too loosely. It does'n hang together ( sorry for the cliché), misses real power and tension....It left me perplexed. The pianoconcerti are totaly different, in a late romantic style, not unlike Liszt, Rachmaninoff, Busoni. I find them very boring !

It is good to have these discs( good performances I think!) as historical information on a strange loner.

Thanks very much for this information. I have only listened to the opening of Symphony 1 so far, which I liked very much but maybe my opinion will change when I hear the rest of it.

[vandermolen]

"I told you darling, don't listen to Van Domselaer's first symphony again! It's really bad music."

[Herman]

According to the reviews this MDG cd is really cool:

[Harry]

According to the reviews this MDG cd is really cool:

It is!

[Dundonnell]

Otto Ketting:

http://muzetunes.com/playback.asx?c=y-LLCralryF8TrbanmGf4wTzaTvArIxi0_JkaHcuMbU=&f=B

From this page.

http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=6900645&style=classical&cart=834550060

It's only thirty seconds, but then it only took me about three minutes to find. I'm sure you could find more if you wanted.

Thank you for taking the time to seek out these links. I appreciate that

Incidentally, I see that Etcetera is issuing a cd of Henk Badings' Symphony No.2, Cello Concerto No.2 and Symphonic Scherzo-

http://www.etcetera-records.com/index.php?713

CPO issued the Badings Symphony No.2(coupled with Nos. 7 and 12) last year and I would guess that a lot of people interested in the music of Badings will have already bought that cd....which is bad news for Etcetera! How many will buy the disc for the Cello Concerto, I wonder. It sounds a bit silly when you read the Etcetera cd blurb which says that the symphony is "finally available".

[some guy]

Here's some more Dutch composers. They have one other thing in common.*

Rozalie Hirs
Joey Roukens
Dante Boon
Taylan Susam
Robert Zuidam
Jacob ter Veldhuis
Peter-Jan Wagemans

*They're all featured on a program of contemporary Dutch music at Redcat on the 20th of February this year. L.A. residents take note!!

[Dax]

Does anybody know anything by Daniel Ruyneman apart from Hieroglyphs (1918)? It's a weird combo and here's an extract, although not brilliantly performed.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=lu7lPID-SLU

[Lilas Pastia]

Jan van Gilse: symphony no. 2 (from 1902 - 32 mins, 3 movements)
Theo Verbey: orchestration of Berg's sonata op. 1 (13 mins, in one movement) / Clarinet Concerto (from 2005 - 20 mins, 3 movements)
Lex van Delden: Symphony no. 3 "Facetten" (from 1955 - 14 mins, in one movement)

I've indicated the dates, length and general layout of these works as I think it gives an indication of their character. The Van Gilse is a romantic work (not even late-romantic). In the character of Barhms (Serenade no 1), Dvorak (symphonies 3-5), and his contemporary scandinavian composers (Norman, Olsson). Rich orchestration, simple but effective melodies, very professional but unadventurous treatment. Listening once didn't leave much of an impression, but a couple more listening sessions proved quite rewarding: it's a solid and very agreeable work (reminds me also of Ives 1).

Theo Verbey's orchestration of Berg's sonata is a masterly piece of work: sumptuously decadent and overwhelmingly dramatic at times, yet transparent and shimmering in the quiet moments. It drips with late romantic chromaticism. Gustav Klimt's The Kiss in sound. The Clarinet Concerto is something altogether different (obviously). Its three movements faithfully adhere to the classic concertante concept, yet the treatment of the familiar fast-slow-fast pattern is anything but conventional. There's an elaborate, imposing orchestral introduction that is quite surprising. Modern works normally dispense with that and get straight to business. Verbey has the patience and expertise that make this first movement a really impressive confection. The rest treads more familiar terrain but the work as a whole has freshness and sincerity right until the end.

I'll need to give van Delden's synmphony more airing time, but this too impresssed me with its big content within a compact format.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Symphony No.7, "Zuiderzee" (1917)

This is apparently the piece performed before Matthijs Vermeulen caused the scene which put him out of favour with much of the establishment of the time. While it's conservative, it's not THAT derivative. From the start it's attractive, appealing, and has the mark of a composer confident in every aspect of their craft. The formal problems of the 1st aren't an issue in this work (I can't speak for the ones in between, which I haven't heard), and his flowing and lyrical style is not at all inhibited by having to better structure this symphony. Melodies in surging string themes, which are then intertwined by other lines from the orchestra - it's the stuff you expect from great composers, but sometimes miss in obscure ones. This isn't the case with Dopper - he's a good melodist and orchestator, his themes building and combining very successfully.

The second movement is delightful, titled Humoreske, it harks back to pre-Scherzo Menuettos - a bit of bouncy fun. The end of this lilting, march-style movement finishes quite bombastically, something which will occur again at the end of the fourth movement. I can see this putting people off, but with such a talented composer, I find that they fit in well, rather than banging and crashing through otherwise attractive passages of music. I'm not sure how familiar he was with Tchaikovsky, but the march-like louder moments sound a bit like the third movement of the Pathétique. I found the slow third movement to be slightly less distinguished (but will give it many more listens before I give up on it), but this is more than made up for by the finale, which is exceptional.

It begins confidently with a hushed, scuttering tune on the strings soon interrupted by some uneasy sounding swirls from the woodwinds and percussion, before combining with them into a gusting tune, then as quickly as that arrived, a full orchestra theme makes its appearance with brilliant brass accompanying it. To me, this perfectly demonstrates what is so fun, enjoyable, and just plain "great" about symphonic music. It sounds absolutely wonderful, and contains a wealth of ideas. The second half... hehe! This is what will make people either love it or want to vomit. The hilarious peal of brass at 4:48 acts as a brief foreshadow to a high octane finale. The finale is so OTT that is is hard to take it seriously - I just listen to it grinning like an idiot. It's so tuneful, wonderful and foot-stamping fun. I'll upload the movement to show what I mean more effectively than my rather inadequate words: IV. Finale No time to upload the rest today, but I will tomorrow.

It was this excellent and tantalising post which made me want to hear Dopper asap. As I wrote in the Listening thread, the Finale is even more exhilarating when you know the tunes - the solemn one is one of those glorious hymns which were collected at the start of the seventeenth century by Adriaen Valerius. It's called 'O Nederland, let op u saeck'. Dopper combines this with a song every Dutch child knows, about Piet Hein and the Zilvervloot - a Dutch admiral who robbed silver from the Spanish. The effect of hearing Valerius and the Zilvervloot had an almost psychedelic effect on me - the stern Calvinist burghers rioting together with the lower orders. At the same time I heard something of a warning for the Dutch to guard their threatened freedom (which is what 'O Nederland, let op u saeck' is about). When Mengelberg conducted this work in 1940 a year after Dopper's death, during the German occupation, he was very brave... There seems to be a CD of this historic performance. I'd really like to hear that!

All in all - a wonderful piece. Dopper is a really good composer.

[Christo]

When Mengelberg conducted this work in 1940 a year after Dopper's death, during the German occupation, he was very brave... There seems to be a CD of this historic performance. I'd really like to hear that!

Then I better lend you my copy  It was released as Volume 13 in the Mengelberg Edition (and included in other editions of the Mengelberg legacy as well). My copy has no details about the recording date, but I think you're right and it's from the Autumn of 1940. Which means, that the Concertgebouw Orchestra had already lost its Jewish players - a fact that sheds a slightly different light on it.

But in my modest opinion Bernard Zweers' Third 'Aan Mijn Vaderland' (To My Fatherland, 1890), a similar concept with similar references, is much more orginal and a better symphony. 

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Then I better lend you my copy  It was released as Volume 13 in the Mengelberg Edition (and included in other editions of the Mengelberg legacy as well). My copy has no details about the recording date, but I think you're right and it's from the Autumn of 1940. Which means, that the Concertgebouw Orchestra had already lost its Jewish players - a fact that sheds a slightly different light on it.

But in my modest opinion Bernard Zweers' Third 'Aan Mijn Vaderland' (To My Fatherland, 1890), a similar concept with similar references, is much more orginal and a better symphony. 

So you have it... Excellent! And I agree - an 'entjudetes' Concertgebouworkest seems to cancel out Mengelberg's patriotic daring... Btw - I found a very interesting web page (only in Dutch) where a contemporary and friend of Mengelberg comments on the 'Vermeulen affair' on the night itself!

http://www.egoproject.nl//archief-debooijfamilie/Fragm.%20Concertgebouw.htm

I started listening to Zweers's Third a few hours ago, but was interrupted. What I heard appeals to me and shows more subtlety and atmosphere than Dopper. But what I like about Dopper is his unapologetic self-confidence, a rare quality in our country...

[donaldopato]

The wonderful RCO box "Bernard Haitink: RCO Live The Radio Recordings" has a piano Concerto by Kees Van Baaren, a name I am not familiar with. The 1964 (?) concerto is serial, relatively concise at around 15 min and frankly a bit academic and dry. I have not seen his name discussed. Any other works worth exploring?

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

[from the Listening thread]

Just listened to Zweers's Third. It's more poetic/pictorial than dramatic. It's a big canvas and Zweers takes his time. The music has no 'plot'. It simply moves and its progress is beguiling. Most of the time, though not in the interminable last movement (which Lethe was thinking of, I think, when she says the music went on and on and on).

Before I start complaining - Zweers has a flair for orchestration and there is a strong atmosphere. I found the first three movements very good. I could hear influences of Schubert, Weber and Wagner (Lohengrin), but they didn't bother me. I liked the unconventional structure of the first movement, which seemed more a fantasy than anything else, not a heavy Germanic curtain-raiser to a world drama.

There is a motto theme from which Zweers derives most of his material, but the order in which he finds all his variations seems to be rather random. Victim of this rather spatial approach to musical time is that terrible last movement, which is an absolute shambles, as if Zweers had dozens of ideas floating in his head and decided to put them all in. I don't know why this movement has turned out so badly. But in this Finale the fantasy element I spotted and admired in the first movement causes a structural chaos full of badly-managed Brucknerian non sequiturs, where a listener thinks the music has ended or is reaching a decisive climax, only to discover Zweers is continuing with another variation of his motto.

In conclusion - Zweers is subtler and more poetic than Dopper when he is at his best. But Dopper has more sense of direction and a firmer grip.

[Lethevich]

I initially posted this in the listening thread, but deleted it, figuring it makes more sense to have it here.

After Jezetha's revealing impressions on Zweers' third symphony, I am giving it a relisten. I am finding it more to my taste this time - the first movement passed without hitch despite its 15 minute length, and the same length second movement, which is halfway through at the moment, is providing a fine contrast (the noble section starting a bit before 9 mins is superb). I am going to relisten to Dopper's first symphony after this, as it bears more of a kinship with the Zweers than his later tightly-constructed ones (it was originally a ballet score, and arguably still is, even with its title).

It is during moods like this (a desire for discovering new music) that makes me so grateful at the high standard of these barely-known (at least outside of their native countries) orchestras. The Zweers is performed strongly, even during brass crescendos, the strings nimble and the recorded sound very fine. The recording industry made such huge strides between 1970 and 2000, and produced wonders.

Edit: It's finished now, and I can see what Jezetha meant about the unfocused finale. It comes across as a bit of a patchwork, and the ending doesn't have any feeling of conclusion, almost coming across as a little feeble. I also found the third movement a little less inspired than the second, but it was fine and should reward closer listening. I am not sure that just a simple trimming of material could solve the problems of the finale, as it could risk it sounding less significant than the preceeding movements. Perhaps Zweers set himself a problem he simply could not solve?

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

It's finished now, and I can see what Jezetha meant about the unfocused finale. It comes across as a bit of a patchwork, and the ending doesn't have any feeling of conclusion, almost coming across as a little feeble. I also found the third movement a little less inspired than the second, but it was fine and should reward closer listening. I am not sure that just a simple trimming of material could solve the problems of the finale, as it could risk it sounding less significant than the preceeding movements. Perhaps Zweers set himself a problem he simply could not solve?

I am in close agreement with you on the merits of the first three movements. When I was listening to the first movement in particular I was amazed at how good it was, because AND in spite of its structural oddities (several development sections springing up during its course without explanation). And you're also spot on with Perhaps Zweers set himself a problem he simply could not solve? Yes, I think the duty of writing a 'great' finale was too much for Zweers, who had already demonstrated in the earlier movements of not being able to write a plausible climax, which was fine, beacuse the beauty and atmosphere made up of for it. But a finale has to clinch matters, which Zweers signally fails to do. And I don't think you can trim that last movement either, its mistakes are all over the place. For it to work, you'd have to, literally, recompose it.

And that Dopper First, please report back!

P.S. Zweers at his best is subtler and more poetic than Dopper is what I meant to write. Although, after listening to Dopper's marvellous Gothic Chaconne just now, I wonder whether this still holds... So far I prefer Dopper to Zweers, because I know he knows what he is doing and where he is going.

[Lethevich]

From re-reading my previous post, I seem to overuse commas bigtime

And that Dopper First, please report back!

I wrote a review of it somewhere in this thread, but I would probably be embarassed by my ham-fisted attempts to describe formal elements. It certainly sounds like an early work, but rather than being mediocre all-round, it has points of interest from being "different". The first is the theme - based strongly on classical mythology, Dopper reacts to these elements in an attempt to produce a sound to fit. The first movement has a brief exposed brass fanfare which repeats several times throughout, recalling to me the trumpets used during Roman state occasions, which is presumably his intention due to the movement title. The first movement is very "classically" restrained, colourful and without much incident. This style is modified to fine effect in a dance movement, where the coy and elusive writing no longer represent woodland-murmurs, but instead the activity of a ball. The third movement offers some more standard writing - a typical mysterious and attractive evocation of a woodland scene. The final movement is the most dramatic and a fine closer (with once again those fanfares popping up in modified form). It seems a work of two halves to me at the moment, with the delicacy (or arguably thinness) or orchestration betraying its ballet origins, not to mention the lack of a strong form or forward movement. Despite grumbles, though, it has many plus points and represents a classically-influenced dramatic tradition that began to die out in place of the new national forms of inspiration that arose during the 19th century.

I notice that I haven't reuploaded it yet for some reason, I will do that and add it to the list a few pages back.

P.S. Zweers at his best is subtler and more poetic than Dopper is what I meant to write.

They seem to be from slightly different schools of compositional thought, I think (although I have only heard Zweers' third). In Dopper there are echoes of the formally strong Brahms (in the more abstract less "national" works), Dvořák, and perhaps slight hints of the Russians. Zweers' third reminds me of the no-holds-barred Romanticism of the Symphony Fantastique and early Wagner's. I was going to add Smetana to Dopper, but they both seem to channel the style of Ma Vlast, but in different ways.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Thanks, Sarah, for that excellent write-up. And I'm looking forward to Dopper's First!

I have been busy listening to Zweers and (especially) Dopper these last two days. I intend to widen my enthusiastic exploration of Dutch music the coming days and weeks. I have Verhulst, Badings and Diepenbrock lined up. It is a joy to discover, rather belatedly, that fine music has been composed in this country and not only by Vermeulen, Pijper and a few others. Orthel was an opening fanfare, perhaps - I can't understand how I have lived without him all these years

On to Dopper (again)! I have listened to Mengelberg's performance of the Zuiderzee symphony 4, 5 times and he really excels in the first three movements. His wonderfully fluid tempi and sense of dynamic gradation work wonders. For example - David Porcelijn uses basically the same tempo for the first movement, only slowing down for the 'O Nederland, let op u saeck' theme. Not so Mengelberg. He really moulds the music. In the Porcelijn the rather four-square main theme can get a bit boring, but Mengelberg is very adroit at varying the pace, so that it can sound grand, yearning, peremptory or simply blunt and forthright. Another thing - in the Mengelberg Dopper's daring combination of themes (akin to Vermeulen!) is much much clearer, so much so that one passage in particular sounded almost new (I'll have to check where the same passage occurs in the Porcelijn). The 'romantic' passages come off better, too. The third movement is very very beautiful in this respect, with a quite other-worldly atmosphere. There is something phantasmagoric about Dopper's soundscapes, and Mengelberg knows how to create sheer magic. I really urge you, Sarah, to listen to that third movement again... Where Porcelijn is the winner is in the final movement, but here, perhaps, the quality of a 1940 recording has let Mengelberg down.

One final remark about the Gothic Chaconne - it is absolutely masterly even in its seriously truncated form (a bl**dy shame!). Dopper equals Brian, Schmidt and other original late Romantics, and his powers of orchestral invention are terrific.

A great discovery.

[Lethevich]

There certainly seems to be more of the requested rubato in the Mengelberg, and the fantasy elements are also played very well, such as in the expressive solos. I found the slow movement slightly plain - if technically admirable - on my listenings to the Porcelijn, but the Mengelberg does make a slightly better case for it. I say slightly, because my cursed ears can't "hear-through" the constant crackling of the recording, or its limited dynamic range - it was especially unfortunate when the crackles became louder in the second half... In both recordings I get more than occasional hints of Sibelius in this movement. It is quite disorienting to hear a woodwind solo (f.eg.) which reeks of Sibelius suddenly developing in a completely different way (where Sibelius would fade out, or move to a fresh idea, Dopper extends it under plucked strings to give a march-like quality, keeping the constant flow of the orchestra intact).

Regarding the critics claims of Dopper's "German nature" of composition, I wonder what exactly they considered un-German in Dutch music of the time... Zweers and De Lange certainly are indebted to central Europe.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

As a Brianite I am used to 'hear-through' bad recordings, supplementing what I can't hear by what I know should be there or what I can imagine to be there!

Regarding the critics claims of Dopper's "German nature" of composition, I wonder what exactly they considered un-German in Dutch music of the time... Zweers and De Lange certainly are indebted to central Europe.

The better question to be asked would have been - how exactly does Dutch music sound? You can't blame Dopper for using what was the musical lingua franca of his age, before Debussy and Stravinsky toppled the German-Austrian hegemony.

I am going to listen to Dopper's First. I read a rather unfavorable review of the performance yesterday, so I'll keep in mind I'm hearing only a performance of the piece and not the piece itself...

[Dundonnell]

Wow! A sudden wave of interest in Dopper!!

(Ok, well maybe not a wave exactly but a ripple of significance )

I had rather dismissed Dopper up to now but having read these enthusiastic posts and having dusted the cobwebs off my three Chandos Dopper symphonies for Jezetha's benefit I had better give him a serious re-evaluation(and Zweers too!)