Most Tragic Symphony (four choices allowed)

[Karl Henning]

No offense taken, Karl. You made several very good points.

Thanks for being a good sport!

[Jo498]

I would not call the allegretto from Beethoven's 7th tragic. It is "sombre" and while not a real funeral march it has some elements of a procession. But I do not hear tragic conflict, find it altogether more of a contrast to the other movements while remaining within the "apotheosis of dance" paradigm (if we follow it) because it is similar to a pavan or some other slow processional dance. If one compares it to the "clashes" in the Eroica funeral march or the coda of the first movement of Beethoven's 9th or to several Mahler movements it is not very dark or tragic.

[Karl Henning]

I would not call the allegretto from Beethoven's 7th tragic. It is "sombre" and while not a real funeral march it has some elements of a procession. But I do not hear tragic conflict, find it altogether more of a contrast to the other movements while remaining within the "apotheosis of dance" paradigm (if we follow it) because it is similar to a pavan or some other slow processional dance.

Good.

[Mister Sharpe]

Karl's point reminds me to note something that's been on my mind about this thread and that is that, strictly-speaking, Tragedy has a well-defined meaning:  "A serious drama in which a central character, the protagonist — usually an important, heroic person — meets with disaster either through some personal fault or through unavoidable circumstances. In most cases, the protagonist's downfall conveys a sense of human dignity in the face of great conflict."  I don't believe all of our selections meet this stricter def., inc. several of my own.  Of course, tragic can also mean your garden variety (my garden was) distress, sorrow and grief... But I  do find it most interesting when a listener can perceive that a composer is writing about someone heroic - or himself - fighting against all odds.  To me, Tchaik 6 and Brahms 4 (and certainly the latter's Tragic Overture) reflect this stricter interpretation.  Which other works would you say do so?

[Jo498]

Not a symphony but Beethoven's Coriolan Ouverture is a great example for me, especially the uncommon pp ending, apparently signifying the final defeat + death of the hero. In his symphonies, Beethoven as hero is always winning in the end although there is e.g. the Appassionata sonata with a "tragic" finale.
And Mahler's 6 does qualify as well whereas his 5 and 7 have a sudden optimistic turn at the end and the 2nd averts tragedy by divine intervention/transcendent hope.

I never really understood the finale of Sibelius 4th with these strange bells, is this supposed to be ironic or what? This symphony seems to begin very darkly but I do not quite sense the inevitable fate leading to disaster, rather it seems to get more ambiguous (not to say obviously "better" or resolved) in the finale.

[Madiel]

Yeah, I don't get "tragic" unless the outcome is a bad one when there was a chance for a good one. My two choices reflect a sense that it all comes crashing down.

[Mister Sharpe]

Not a symphony but Beethoven's Coriolan Ouverture is a great example for me, especially the uncommon pp ending, apparently signifying the final defeat + death of the hero. In his symphonies, Beethoven as hero is always winning in the end although there is e.g. the Appassionata sonata with a "tragic" finale.
And Mahler's 6 does qualify as well whereas his 5 and 7 have a sudden optimistic turn at the end and the 2nd averts tragedy by divine intervention/transcendent hope.

I never really understood the finale of Sibelius 4th with these strange bells, is this supposed to be ironic or what? This symphony seems to begin very darkly but I do not quite sense the inevitable fate leading to disaster, rather it seems to get more ambiguous (not to say obviously "better" or resolved) in the finale.

Thanks, Jo, agree it's a great example.  I listened anew to it as I hadn't heard it in over a decade (gulp!) and it is one of my favorite of LvB's. 

[André]

Not a symphony but Beethoven's Coriolan Ouverture is a great example for me, especially the uncommon pp ending, apparently signifying the final defeat + death of the hero. In his symphonies, Beethoven as hero is always winning in the end although there is e.g. the Appassionata sonata with a "tragic" finale.
And Mahler's 6 does qualify as well whereas his 5 and 7 have a sudden optimistic turn at the end and the 2nd averts tragedy by divine intervention/transcendent hope.

I never really understood the finale of Sibelius 4th with these strange bells, is this supposed to be ironic or what? This symphony seems to begin very darkly but I do not quite sense the inevitable fate leading to disaster, rather it seems to get more ambiguous (not to say obviously "better" or resolved) in the finale.

Same here. I find Coriolan the epitome of tragedy in music. OTOH Sibeliu's 4th is "tragic" only in its 1st movement. The rest is a quest in the unknown, with a blink to another world in the last movement.

[Mahlerian]

I never really understood the finale of Sibelius 4th with these strange bells, is this supposed to be ironic or what? This symphony seems to begin very darkly but I do not quite sense the inevitable fate leading to disaster, rather it seems to get more ambiguous (not to say obviously "better" or resolved) in the finale.

I think the finale of Sibelius's Fourth is a search for a triumphant ending that never arrives.  It starts off jauntily and assertively but then rips itself apart, ending with a few disconsolate shreds of earlier motifs.  All four movements of the work end in collapse and dissolution.

[mahler10th]

Schmidt - Symphony 4.  In particular, Zubin Mehta and the VPO from 1971, released with full dynamics in 1990 - you would not think for a moment this recording was 45 years old.  The piece itself is a "Requiem" for his lost daughter, and by all the Gods you will know this when you hear it.  Probably one of the most tragic, life affirming (!?) recording of any Symphony.  Wonderful.  Emotional.

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[Madiel]

I think the finale of Sibelius's Fourth is a search for a triumphant ending that never arrives.  It starts off jauntily and assertively but then rips itself apart, ending with a few disconsolate shreds of earlier motifs.  All four movements of the work end in collapse and dissolution.

Yes, this. The finale does, to me, collapse. In Ashkenazy's recordings with its magnificent brass, I can pinpoint when it happens.

[Ken B]

Schmidt - Symphony 4.  In particular, Zubin Mehta and the VPO from 1971, released with full dynamics in 1990 - you would not think for a moment this recording was 45 years old.  The piece itself is a "Requiem" for his lost daughter, and by all the Gods you will know this when you hear it.  Probably one of the most tragic, life affirming (!?) recording of any Symphony.  Wonderful.  Emotional.

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A stunner that one. Great choice too. My fourth slot was open. Filled now!

[vandermolen]

Schmidt - Symphony 4.  In particular, Zubin Mehta and the VPO from 1971, released with full dynamics in 1990 - you would not think for a moment this recording was 45 years old.  The piece itself is a "Requiem" for his lost daughter, and by all the Gods you will know this when you hear it.  Probably one of the most tragic, life affirming (!?) recording of any Symphony.  Wonderful.  Emotional.

[asin]B00000E4J2[/asin]

I agree John - such a great disc. I had the old Decca LP and was always very moved by it. I agree that this is the best recording. Alexander Moyzes's Symphony 7 - his greatest I think - is also in memory of his daughter, who died young. Like Suk's great 'Asrael Symphony' it seems to arrive at a hard-won acceptance by the end. I find it more poignant than 'tragic' (it has a beautifully wistful opening theme) but it is certainly informed by tragedy:
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[Androcles]

Karl's point reminds me to note something that's been on my mind about this thread and that is that, strictly-speaking, Tragedy has a well-defined meaning:  "A serious drama in which a central character, the protagonist — usually an important, heroic person — meets with disaster either through some personal fault or through unavoidable circumstances. In most cases, the protagonist's downfall conveys a sense of human dignity in the face of great conflict."  I don't believe all of our selections meet this stricter def., inc. several of my own.  Of course, tragic can also mean your garden variety (my garden was) distress, sorrow and grief... But I  do find it most interesting when a listener can perceive that a composer is writing about someone heroic - or himself - fighting against all odds.  To me, Tchaik 6 and Brahms 4 (and certainly the latter's Tragic Overture) reflect this stricter interpretation.  Which other works would you say do so?

Miaskovsky 6 'The Revolutionary' is about the closest thing I know to this definition. The conflict is a battle for the soul of Russia after 1917, something that the composer is very personally engaged with. The composer is protagonist on behalf of his people. The nervous first movement, limpid beauty of 'lost innocence' in the central movements and the powerful and deeply tragic finale, juxtaposing perky and banale revolutionary songs with a solemn Russian Orthodox burial hymn that finally silences them  - combine to give this piece a very special and haunting atmosphere.

The composer's father, a Tsarist general was murdered during the revolution, as I believe, were various other family members. The use of the Orthodox hymn in the finale 'How the Soul Parted from the Body' - Shto mui vidyeli? – 'What did we see? A miraculous wonder, a dead body ...' remains one of the most interesting things about the piece. The version with the choir wailing pitifully at the end is the best, although Svetlanov's performance (unfortunately without the choir) is also very good.

[vandermolen]

Miaskovsky 6 'The Revolutionary' is about the closest thing I know to this definition. The conflict is a battle for the soul of Russia after 1917, something that the composer is very personally engaged with. The composer is protagonist on behalf of his people. The nervous first movement, limpid beauty of 'lost innocence' in the central movements and the powerful and deeply tragic finale, juxtaposing perky and banale revolutionary songs with a solemn Russian Orthodox burial hymn that finally silences them  - combine to give this piece a very special and haunting atmosphere.

The composer's father, a Tsarist general was murdered during the revolution, as I believe, were various other family members. The use of the Orthodox hymn in the finale 'How the Soul Parted from the Body' - Shto mui vidyeli? – 'What did we see? A miraculous wonder, a dead body ...' remains one of the most interesting things about the piece. The version with the choir wailing pitifully at the end is the best, although Svetlanov's performance (unfortunately without the choir) is also very good.

Very interesting - I agree. I was very lucky to see this symphony live in London a few years ago - one of my greatest concert experiences. I attended a rehearsal too and met the conductor Jurowski. He told the choir to sing like 'Russian peasants'. I think that Miaskovsky's pre-revolutionary 3rd Symphony suggests the doomed and hopeless striving of its hero. It has a wonderfully gloomy ending, probably influenced by Tchaikovsky's 'Pathetique'. It could also be seen as a tragic work.

[Mirror Image]

I haven't weighed in on this matter yet, but these spring to mind almost immediately:

Shostakovich: Symphony No. 8
Weinberg: Symphony No. 5
Pettersson: Symphony No. 7
Mahler: Symphony No. 9

[Mahlerian]

I don't understand what's tragic about Mahler's Ninth.  It doesn't end in the minor, it doesn't end in despair, it concludes in rarefied serenity and acceptance.  All of the stuff about Mahler writing his farewell to the world is BS, as we know for a fact he had no clue that he would die in only 2 years.

[Mirror Image]

I don't understand what's tragic about Mahler's Ninth.  It doesn't end in the minor, it doesn't end in despair, it concludes in rarefied serenity and acceptance.  All of the stuff about Mahler writing his farewell to the world is BS, as we know for a fact he had no clue that he would die in only 2 years.

A piece of music doesn't have to end tragically to be considered tragic IMHO. I think there's a sense of resignation in Mahler's 9th whether it was intended or not...it's what I hear. If I'm wrong for having this opinion and others disagree, oh well.

Edit: Personally, I think Mahler did sense the end was near and the 9th was a symphony he poured his heart out over. It must have been difficult for him to compose it. In fact, the whole prospect of a 9th symphony, historically speaking, seems to bring out this quality in a lot of composers (or composers who actually make it to their 9th symphony).

[Mahlerian]

A piece of music doesn't have to end tragically to be considered tragic IMHO. I think there's a sense of resignation in Mahler's 9th whether it was intended or not...it's what I hear. If I'm wrong for having this opinion and others disagree, oh well.

Edit: Personally, I think Mahler did sense the end was near and the 9th was a symphony he poured his heart out over. It must have been difficult for him to compose it. In fact, the whole prospect of a 9th symphony, historically speaking, seems to bring out this quality in a lot of composers (or composers who actually make it to their 9th symphony).

Around the time of the rehearsal of the Eighth (that is, after finishing the Ninth and drafting the Tenth), Mahler gave an interview in which he laid out his plans for the future.  He said, among other things, that he wished to temporarily retire from conducting and become a full-time composer.  He was not thinking about his own end, he was thinking about what to do next.

Like I said, we know for a fact that the Ninth was not written to be a final valediction.

He poured his heart into the work, of course, and none of this diminishes the emotional impact of the symphony, but nothing could be worse for Mahler than to treat his music as merely a reflection of specific events or occurrences in his life, like autobiographical program music.  Ask yourself, does the work have to be Mahler writing about his own death in order to have the impact?  Of course not; the music is exactly the same either way.

[Mirror Image]

Around the time of the rehearsal of the Eighth (that is, after finishing the Ninth and drafting the Tenth), Mahler gave an interview in which he laid out his plans for the future.  He said, among other things, that he wished to temporarily retire from conducting and become a full-time composer.  He was not thinking about his own end, he was thinking about what to do next.

Like I said, we know for a fact that the Ninth was not written to be a final valediction.

And as I stated, this is what I feel from the 9th and there's no need in trying to convince me, or anyone for that matter, to share your opinion. Can't help what I hear in the music regardless of what the facts present.