Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)

[JBS]

Think of it this way.  Close to one third of all Americans are something other than Christian: atheists like you,  members of a different religion like myself, or totally indifferent to the subject (which is not quite the same as being atheist). 
And of the 70% who do, how many are "cultural Christians" that go to church perhaps once or twice a year, and rarely pick up a Bible any other time? How many are socially liberal believers?  Wikipedia says that 22% of Americans are Catholics, why are often socially conservative, but are definitely not Evangelical Protestants.  Even if all the remaining 48% of Americans were Evangelicals,  they would be only a plurality. 

[71 dB]

Think of it this way.  Close to one third of all Americans are something other than Christian: atheists like you,  members of a different religion like myself, or totally indifferent to the subject (which is not quite the same as being atheist). 
And of the 70% who do, how many are "cultural Christians" that go to church perhaps once or twice a year, and rarely pick up a Bible any other time? How many are socially liberal believers?  Wikipedia says that 22% of Americans are Catholics, why are often socially conservative, but are definitely not Evangelical Protestants.  Even if all the remaining 48% of Americans were Evangelicals,  they would be only a plurality.

In the end of all that analysing Christianity is the biggest religion in the US and a lot of Americans think the US is a Christian nation.

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

If 70.6 % is not vast majority what is? 99.9 %?

No, I wouldn't consider 70% a vast majority. Aside from that it is misleading to put all Christians in the same basket. Evangelicals, are only 25%. 20% are Catholics and the Catholic church itself accepts evolution, modern cosmology and science in general. The divisive teachings on homosexuality, birth control, etc, are ignored by probably half of U.S. Catholics.

According to Wikipedia, Finland is 76% Christian, and virtually all of them follow the same evangelical church. The fraction unaffiliated is about the same as the U.S. (25%).  Finland is much more homogeneous than the U.S. in terms of religion. There may not be as big a tradition of mixing religion with politics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Finland

[North Star]

No, I wouldn't consider 70% a vast majority. Aside from that it is misleading to put all Christians in the same basket. Evangelicals, are only 25%. 20% are Catholics and the Catholic church itself accepts evolution, modern cosmology and science in general. The divisive teachings on homosexuality, birth control, etc, are ignored by probably half of U.S. Catholics.

According to Wikipedia, Finland is 76% Christian, and virtually all of them follow the same evangelical church. The fraction unaffiliated is about the same as the U.S. (25%).  Finland is much more homogeneous than the U.S. in terms of religion. There may not be as big a tradition of mixing religion with politics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Finland

True, most native Finns are members of the Lutheran church. Most of us also go to the church only for weddings, funerals, and maybe a Christmas concert. Being religious is certainly a lot more common in the US.

According to the most recent Eurobarometer Poll (2010),[11]

33% of Finnish citizens "believe there is a God". (In 2005, the figure was 41%)
42% "believe there is some sort of spirit or life force". (In 2005, the figure was 41%)
22% "do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force". (In 2005, the figure was 16%)

In 2014 the Pew Research Center's Religious Landscape Study showed 63% of Americans believed in God and were "absolutely certain" in their view, while the figure rose to 89% including those who were agnostic.[104]
A 2012 WIN-Gallup International poll showed that 5% of Americans considered themselves "convinced" atheists, which was a fivefold increase from the last time the survey was taken in 2005, and 5% said they did not know or else did not respond.[105]
A 2012 Pew Research Center survey found that doubts about the existence of a god had grown among younger Americans, with 68% telling Pew they never doubt God's existence, a 15-point drop in five years. In 2007, 83% of American millennials said they never doubted God's existence.[101][106]
A 2011 Gallup poll found 92% of Americans said yes to the basic question "Do you believe in God?", while 7% said no and 1% had no opinion.[107]
A 2010 Gallup poll found 80% of Americans believe in a god, 12% believe in a universal spirit, 6% don't believe in either, 1% chose "other", and 1% had no opinion. 80% is a decrease from the 1940s, when Gallup first asked this question.
A late 2009 online Harris poll of 2,303 U.S. adults (18 and older)[108] found that "82% of adult Americans believe in God", the same number as in two earlier polls in 2005 and 2007. Another 9% said they did not believe in God, and 9% said that they were not sure. It further concluded, "Large majorities also believe in miracles (76%), heaven (75%), that Jesus is God or the Son of God (73%), in angels (72%), the survival of the soul after death (71%), and in the resurrection of Jesus (70%). Less than half (45%) of adults believe in Darwin's theory of evolution but this is more than the 40% who believe in creationism..... Many people consider themselves Christians without necessarily believing in some of the key beliefs of Christianity. However, this is not true of born-again Christians. In addition to their religious beliefs, large minorities of adults, including many Christians, have "pagan" or pre-Christian beliefs such as a belief in ghosts, astrology, witches and reincarnation.... Because the sample is based on those who agreed to participate in the Harris Interactive panel, no estimates of theoretical sampling error can be calculated."
A 2008 survey of 1,000 people concluded that, based on their stated beliefs rather than their religious identification, 69.5% of Americans believe in a personal God, roughly 12.3% of Americans are atheist or agnostic, and another 12.1% are deistic (believing in a higher power/non-personal God, but no personal God).[52]
Mark Chaves, a Duke University professor of sociology, religion and divinity, found that 92% of Americans believed in God in 2008, but that significantly fewer Americans have great confidence in their religious leaders than a generation ago.[109]
According to a 2008 ARIS survey, belief in God varies considerably by region. The lowest rate is in the West with 59% reporting a belief in God, and the highest rate is in the South at 86%.[110]

[bwv 1080]

International Society of Travel Medicine?

It can't be disputed that Buddhism had a supernatural component from its origins, and that abstracting the practice from the religious aspects is a modern feature.

I read or heard somewhere (maybe some sort of Podcast) that Buddhism is the most effective way to "hack" the human mind, which was formed by evolution and not designed to be happy or content.

And many will argue that Buddhism is merely another school of Hindu thought, from which it sprang.  You certainly cant separate the meditation aspect from its Hindu origins (and Hinduism itself changed a lot since the time of Buddha)

[71 dB]

No, I wouldn't consider 70% a vast majority. Aside from that it is misleading to put all Christians in the same basket. Evangelicals, are only 25%. 20% are Catholics and the Catholic church itself accepts evolution, modern cosmology and science in general. The divisive teachings on homosexuality, birth control, etc, are ignored by probably half of U.S. Catholics.

According to Wikipedia, Finland is 76% Christian, and virtually all of them follow the same evangelical church. The fraction unaffiliated is about the same as the U.S. (25%).  Finland is much more homogeneous than the U.S. in terms of religion. There may not be as big a tradition of mixing religion with politics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Finland

Well, can I say 70.6 % is a majority without the "vast" word?

I wish Finland was more secular than it is. Gay marriage was legalized here in 2017 almost 2 years AFTER the US (and even Colombia) which is really embarrassing. Other Nordic countries allowed gay marriage YEARS earlier (2009/2012) not to mention Netherlands (2001). Our current government of horror has religious nutjobs: Our Prime Minister (who is about as idiotic as Trump) is a member of Laestadianism and our Catholic Minister of Foreign Affairs have been traveling and speading anti-gay propaganda!  Not fun at all. I'm waiting so much for the next election and having the left parties back in power.

[drogulus]

Think of it this way.  Close to one third of all Americans are something other than Christian: atheists like you,  members of a different religion like myself, or totally indifferent to the subject (which is not quite the same as being atheist). 
And of the 70% who do, how many are "cultural Christians" that go to church perhaps once or twice a year, and rarely pick up a Bible any other time? How many are socially liberal believers?  Wikipedia says that 22% of Americans are Catholics, why are often socially conservative, but are definitely not Evangelical Protestants.  Even if all the remaining 48% of Americans were Evangelicals,  they would be only a plurality. 

     I don't think what people identify as is a good indicator of what they believe. It's really hard to believe as an act of will what seems like nonsense to you. I wouldn't know how to do that, and I have doubts that it's all that common to succeed at believing the unbelievable. It's much easier to say you do and leave it at that.

     

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

Well, can I say 70.6 % is a majority without the "vast" word?

Vast means 'huge' or 'immense.' 'Vast majority' implies the majority is dramatically larger than the minority. 70% means the majority is just over twice as large as the minority. I wouldn't call twice as large 'vast.' I wouldn't use the phrase unless it were 90% or more.

In any case, vastness aside, I'd agree that the U.S. population is generally more religious than in Finland, although it the US is not as homogeneously Christian as you assume.

[milk]

Most of the people writing here could be interchangeable;  they all speak the same ideological cant.  I bet I could predict everything they think about most things, right to the last full stop.  Why not think freely, maturely and with nuance instead of sticking to the discussion points and ideology?  Life is too short for such bigotry and unhappiness.

It would be interesting to get specifics. It's hard to evaluate the point without knowing to which topics you refer, what kind of bigotry you want to point out and the kind of nuance you feel should be offered.

[JBS]

     I don't think what people identify as is a good indicator of what they believe. It's really hard to believe as an act of will what seems like nonsense to you. I wouldn't know how to do that, and I have doubts that it's all that common to succeed at believing the unbelievable. It's much easier to say you do and leave it at that.

   

That is what I was referring to as "cultural Christians".

[71 dB]

Vast means 'huge' or 'immense.' 'Vast majority' implies the majority is dramatically larger than the minority. 70% means the majority is just over twice as large as the minority. I wouldn't call twice as large 'vast.' I wouldn't use the phrase unless it were 90% or more.

In any case, vastness aside, I'd agree that the U.S. population is generally more religious than in Finland, although it the US is not as homogeneously Christian as you assume.

Ok, vast majority = 90 % or more. I'm cool with that.

[milk]

And many will argue that Buddhism is merely another school of Hindu thought, from which it sprang.  You certainly cant separate the meditation aspect from its Hindu origins (and Hinduism itself changed a lot since the time of Buddha)

I think Sam Harris's book on the topic is quite good. I spent my younger years being interested in Hinduism and travelled to India. At some point, obviously, I changed. Anyway...
Edit: I mean on the topic of the "science" of meditation. I'm still taking a liberty putting it that way. There is a bit of discussion of brain science in that book but also of meditation generally and as divorced from religious beliefs. It's a very pop book of course.

[BasilValentine]

No, I wouldn't consider 70% a vast majority. Aside from that it is misleading to put all Christians in the same basket. Evangelicals, are only 25%. 20% are Catholics and the Catholic church itself accepts evolution, modern cosmology and science in general. The divisive teachings on homosexuality, birth control, etc, are ignored by probably half of U.S. Catholics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Finland

I'm wondering about the 20% figure for Catholics. Is that the percentage of those polled identifying as Catholic or is that a Church generated statistic? After all, if one is baptized Catholic they will claim you til the day you die. The only way to become a non-Catholic by their books is to get excommunicated. And that sounds like a lot of work.

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

I'm wondering about the 20% figure for Catholics. Is that the percentage of those polled identifying as Catholic or is that a Church generated statistic? After all, if one is baptized Catholic they will claim you til the day you die. The only way to become a non-Catholic by their books is to get excommunicated. And that sounds like a lot of work.

The number comes from the Pew Trust, which I linked. I think it is based on self-identification. But Catholics will identify themselves as such even after they have don't practice in any substantial way.

[arpeggio]

I used to be a practicing Greek Orthodox Christian.  I got so tired of being accused of being an agnostic/atheist for believing in Darwin I decided that I must be one.

[Sydney Nova Scotia]

I believe in Alice Springs- what does that make me ..........

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

I used to be a practicing Greek Orthodox Christian.  I got so tired of being accused of being an agnostic/atheist for believing in Darwin I decided that I must be one.

Too bad you weren't Catholic. Officially they accept Darwin, except for the qualification that evolution was god's scheme for creating life (the deck was stacked).

[Marc]

That harmonizes with my (admittedly limited) understanding.

There is a lot of wisdom in much philosophy and in many different religions. And even, sometimes, in political ideas.
And there is a lot of wisdom in a lot of their followers, too.

But to me, all religions, philosophies or political conceptions are still the creation of humans.
And the followers of all those (more but also less) wise thoughts are humans, too.

Right now, the political ideas, and the way they are uttered, of a certain Donald Trump are dividing human beings in a certain country (and also outside of that country).
I once lost a friend 'due to Buddhism' though ..., after almost 2 decades of friendship, one of my best friends got converted, and I had to deal with the claim that chanting and believing Buddhists were now the 'real friends', which meant that I had to step down quite a few places on the list of friends. I admit I could not really cope with that, so I said: peace and love, go with the real friends then, and be happy. Which was what happened, without any further response, and without any further ado. Not sure if this behaviour of one his very convinced followers is part of the Buddha's original concept, though. But, it's human behaviour and it happens, that's for sure.

Anyway, apparently both Donald Trump and the Buddha are able to create division.
Alas, it has been like that among humans for ages and ages, and, I fear, for ages and ages to come.

Let's give, to celebrate at least one of those many wise philisophical/religious/political thoughts, a certain Ringo Starr and his 'Ringo-Starr-ism' a hug, shall we?

"Peace and Love."

[zamyrabyrd]

ISTM Buddhism is nebulous and distant enough that Westerners can project whatever they like into it.  In historical practice it has all the baggage of any other religion - from pederast Tibetan monks no better than the worst Catholic examples to the current Buddhist-led pogroms of Muslims in Burma.

Fundamental Buddhism (if it is possible to construct such a phrase) are the sayings of the Buddha and living by them. For convenience sake, this is taken from Wikipedia "Buddhist Councils":

According to the scriptures of all Buddhist schools, the first Buddhist Council was held soon after the death of the Buddha, dated by the majority of recent scholars around 400 BCE,[1] under the patronage of the king Ajatashatru with the monk Mahakasyapa presiding, at Sattapanni caves Rajgriha (now Rajgir). Its objective was to preserve the Buddha's sayings (suttas) and the monastic discipline or rules (Vinaya).

A similarity to the origins of Christianity and writing down what was originally an oral tradition cannot be ignored. There were various councils in the early Church to decide what texts to keep and to discard those that were contrary to what were regarded as the original teachings.

In time there is development but also inevitable deterioration. Institutionalization has its advantages but also its drawbacks. As with Catholic priests and clergy ANY sexual activity is forbidden among Buddhist monks, so whatever you cite is an aberration and not par for the course of 2500 years. In other words, the benefits of having both religions greatly outweigh the downside of those few who would take advantage and distort the message.

[zamyrabyrd]

I once lost a friend 'due to Buddhism' though ..., after almost 2 decades of friendship, one of my best friends got converted, and I had to deal with the claim that chanting and believing Buddhists were now the 'real friends', which meant that I had to step down quite a few places on the list of friends. I admit I could not really cope with that, so I said: peace and love, go with the real friends then, and be happy. Which was what happened, without any further response, and without any further ado. Not sure if this behaviour of one his very convinced followers is part of the Buddha's original concept, though. But, it's human behaviour and it happens, that's for sure.

The above is really weird. One does not "convert" to Buddhism. Anyone can live by its teachings. No need to become a card carrying member of a group. I do have a hard time though with Christians who have the impulse to convert. or think it is a proper concept. Actually I see no such thing, except when one has an internal change of outlook which can be sudden or gradual, again, a private matter.