Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)

[nodogen]

"Bishop of Liverpool criticises Christian Trump supporters"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42499266

[Florestan]

Grinning. Not only because I, just like tens of millions of Americans, am a calvinist myself. But also because, of course, I recognize this story as one of those comical myths that bear no resemblence with (theological, religious, historical) reality whatsoever.

Do you deny the theological and religious validity of the Five Points? Do you deny the historicity of Calvin's theocracy in Geneva?

Another funny fact: I am currently working on a monograph on Abraham Kuyper (1837-1920), a leading Dutch politician, theologian and journalist whose life's work consisted of the intellectual underpinning of his argument that calvism is the highest stage of human development and freedom.

We Romanians have a saying: every gypsy sings the praises of his hammer.... If Calvinism is the highest stage of human development and freedom then the prospects of the human race are grim. To begin with, what meaning might freedom and human development have in a system of thought and action which denies free will and proclaims the total depravity of all humans?

A truism, stated this way, and applicable to any idea of culture. But also a postmodernist exaggeration that I trust you won't uphold in the end: of course we can refer to an Orthodox world, Islam, Hinduism or Buddhism with some justification. The Latin 'West' exists in a similar general way and with an inner unity that is easily discernable, historically speaking: some would call it a discourse. All examples you mention easily fit into this general picture.

Feel free to expand upon the inner unity of Jean Calvin and Miguel Servet...

From the start of the crusades on, long before the conquest of the Iberian peninsula, Jews were expelled from all of Western Europe, England, France, the Rhinelands, including. Only in early modern times here en there - for example in the free city of Amsterdam, but they were not tolerated in Utrecht and most other regions until late in the 18th century  - some new communities were established.

False.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_France

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Germany

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Italy

The last link directly refutes your claim that "The mass expulsion of Sephardic jews resulted in their settlement in the Ottoman empire because there were no 'Western' countries they could go to. "

[Christo]

Do you deny the historicity of Calvin's theocracy in Geneva?

Oh, absolutely: there has never been such a thing, as every historian knows. As to the funny (American, not known in European calvinism) five points of the 'TULIP': the points themselves are a rather correct summary of the Pauline-Augustianian-Calvinist - as we calvinists would hold it - creed, but their elaboration is often unacceptably crude. We better stick to the original confessions (e.g. the  Heidelberg Catechism or Confessio Belgica). (Again: I'm a bit stunned about your lack of understanding of a mainstream Christian tradition, and the utter nonsense you make of it ... what does it tell about your understanding of non-Christians?  )

Feel free to expand upon the inner unity of Jean Calvin and Miguel Servet...

There was no special relation between these two men, but it's true Servet was considered a heretic by the civil authorities of Geneve and Calvin - who had no say in their affairs and who, BTW, is not too important in calvinism (which is a 19th century invention and partly misnomer) - saw no reason to think otherwise. It's one of those themes Kuyper, who vehemently championed free speech and freedom of religion, had second thoughts about. But if you really hold my feet to the fire: yes, I also read John Calvin with pleasure, he's one of the true originals and I have no complaints to be considered a calvinist myself.

And BTW thanks for presenting Wikipedia sources - why not first read them? - underlining my point: there was no place for jews in all of Western Europe from the crusades on. 

[Christo]

"Bishop of Liverpool criticises Christian Trump supporters"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42499266

The bishop is right, simply doing his Christian duty. 

[Florestan]

And BTW thanks for presenting Wikipedia sources - why not first read them? - underlining my point: there was no place for jews in all of Western Europe from the crusades on. 

If that were true, and the Jewish communities in all of Western Europe have been all but extinct from the crusades on (which is emphatically not what Wikipedia says), then it begs the question: where did Hitler find so many of them? This aside, it seems like you have never heard of, say, Baruch Spinoza and Isaac da Fonseca, of the Mendelssohns and the Rothschilds, of Benjamin Diraeli and Leon Blum, of Heinrich Heine, Lion Feuchtwanger and Joseph Roth, of Meyerbeer, Mahler and Offenbach, of Jakob Wassermann and Stefan Zweig, of Fromental Halevy, Alkan, Paul Dukas and Emile Waldteufel, which is hard to believe. Why you persist in maintaining a blatant falsehood is beyond me.

As for Calvinism, I would gladly discuss its tenets and the activity of Calvin himself, because contrary to another wild claim of yours, namely that Calvin is not too important in Calvinism, the latter is defined thus "Calvinism (also called the Reformed tradition, Reformed Christianity, Reformed Protestantism, or the Reformed faith) is a major branch of Protestantism that follows the theological tradition and forms of Christian practice of John Calvin and other Reformation-era theologians." and I have yet to read a Calvinist source claiming that Calvin is marginal to their theology, beliefs and practices. But that would mean highjacking the thread much farther than we have already did. If you feel like it, please start a dedicated thread. I will contribute willingly.

[Christo]

If that were true, and the Jewish communities in all of Western Europe have been all but extinct from the crusades on (which is emphatically not what Wikipedia says), then it begs the question: where did Hitler find so many of them? This aside, it seems like you have never heard of, say, Baruch Spinoza and Isaac da Fonseca, of the Mendelssohns and the Rothschilds, of Benjamin Diraeli and Leon Blum, of Heinrich Heine, Lion Feuchtwanger and Joseph Roth, of Meyerbeer, Mahler and Offenbach, of Jakob Wassermann and Stefan Zweig, of Fromental Halevy, Alkan, Paul Dukas and Emile Waldteufel, which is hard to believe. Why you persist in maintaining a blatant falsehood is beyond me.

Again: all your exampes underline the obvious point here, that Jews were almost extinct in Western Europe from the crusades on, and only smaller communites could establish themselves anew in Western Europe in the Early Modern and Modern Era. The Nazis found them where they had found refuge: the territories of the former Rzeczpospolita, Ottoman and Habsburg empires.

"the Reformed tradition, Reformed Christianity, Reformed Protestantism, or the Reformed faith) is a major branch of Protestantism"

Exactly, and if you had time to study the proceedings of e.g. the Presbyterians, Hungarian Reformatus, Anglican church, Swiss, Dutch and American Reformed and other related "calvinists" - you would know what every historian of religion knows: Calvin himself played a role, but often less so than others (e.g. Knox, À Lasco, Bucer, Zwingli, the Wesleys, Edwards, the Puritans) and to group them all together as "calvinism" is a 19th century fantasy comparable to calling American religion "jeffersonian" because Jefferson was important among the Founding Fathers. Again: nothing wrong with Jehan Cauvin himself, an important Humanist whose writings I recommend. (There are some good biographies too, but Wiki will suffice for the moment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Calvin).

In short: many American presidents have been calvinists without knowing much about Calvin - for good reasons. 

[Florestan]

Again: all your exampes underline the obvious point here, that Jews were almost extinct in Western Europe from the crusades on, and only smaller communites could establish themselves anew in Western Europe in the Early Modern and Modern Era. The Nazis found them where they had found refuge: the territories of the former Rzeczpospolita, Ottoman and Habsburg empires.

The Nazis annexed Austria in 1938, invaded Poland in 1939 and never set foot on Ottoman soil. This leaves five full years (1933 - 1938) during which no large scale persecution of Jews should have happened / did happen in Germany because, according to you, there were virtually no Jews left in Germany ever since the Crusades.  You keep amazing me.

[Florestan]

nothing wrong with Jehan Cauvin himself

Plenty of wrongs, actually, but as I said this is not the place to discuss them.

[Christo]

The Nazis annexed Austria in 1938, invaded Poland in 1939 and never set foot on Ottoman soil. This leaves five full years (1933 - 1938) during which no large scale persecution of Jews should have happened / did happen in Germany because, according to you, there were virtually no Jews left in Germany ever since the Crusades.  You keep amazing me.

The 'Ottoman' Jews the Nazis annihilated are those from Saloniki and the whole Balkans, the German communities were largely formed from the 18th century on. But no comparison to the millions of the former Poland-Lithuania ('Pale'), where over 80 percent of all Jews worlwide were still lving in the early 20th century.

Edit: why not check the basic facts of the expulsion of Jews from Western Europe yourself? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Europe Persecution of Jews in Europe increased in the High Middle Ages in the context of the Christian Crusades. In the First Crusade (1096) flourishing communities on the Rhine and the Danube were utterly destroyed. In the Second Crusade (1147) the Jews in France were subject to frequent massacres. The Crusades were followed by expulsions, including in, 1290, the banishing of all English Jews. In 1396, 100,000 Jews were expelled from France; and, in 1421 thousands were expelled from Austria. Many of the expelled Jews fled to Poland. Etc.

Plenty of wrongs, actually, but as I said this is not the place to discuss them.

OK, you won't find much difference in substance (theology, thinking) between e.g. St. Augustine - my founding father of preference, but of course I'm diehard Latin/Western  - and this fine Humanist, IMO. But let's unite bhind the banner of the Nicean creed and leave those homunculi alone. 

[Christo]

What about the breaking news about Moore's move to have the Alabama election results blocked because of "systematic voter fraud"? How is this news received in the US of A.? 
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/us/politics/roy-moore-block-election.html?emc=edit_na_20171228&nl=breaking-news&nlid=69564999&ref=cta&mtrref=undefined

[milk]

What about the breaking news about Moore's move to have the Alabama election results blocked because of "systematic voter fraud"? How is this news received in the US of A.? 
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/us/politics/roy-moore-block-election.html?emc=edit_na_20171228&nl=breaking-news&nlid=69564999&ref=cta&mtrref=undefined

I'm not living over there anymore but there's something ironic about Moore going to the courts, I mean him being a "disgraced" judge and all. I wonder what the psychological muck is with someone so obviously full of deceit, malice and vindictiveness. 

[Christo]

I don't see a calvinist anywhere here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_affiliations_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States

Thanks! A quick count learns that out of 45 American presidents, 15 are classified as calvinists and at least 11 (mostly Episcopalians) as 'partly' calvinist. Which makes a large majority of 26 in total, or 58 percent. 

(I was a bit disappointed to discover the present one, who didn't show much sensitivity to it, thus far - should also be counted as a 'pure' Calvinist.) 

[Gurn Blanston]

What about the breaking news about Moore's move to have the Alabama election results blocked because of "systematic voter fraud"? How is this news received in the US of A.? 
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/us/politics/roy-moore-block-election.html?emc=edit_na_20171228&nl=breaking-news&nlid=69564999&ref=cta&mtrref=undefined

We basically know what bullshit smells like, and this is reeking of it. The state Attorney General says he is certifying the election today anyway, so be damned to it.

[Christo]

'Alabama Brushes Aside Roy Moore Challenge'
To this day, Republicans note, Mr. Moore has not conceded his losses in the 2006 or 2010 primaries for governor, and there is already speculation that he might run for governor next year. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/us/politics/roy-moore-block-election.html?emc=edit_na_20171228&nl=breaking-news&nlid=69564999&ref=cta&mtrref=undefined&gwh=B61EACDE1860BFE3D2D419D355602898&gwt=pay

[Florestan]

The 'Ottoman' Jews the Nazis annihilated are those from Saloniki and the whole Balkans, the German communities were largely formed from the 18th century on. But no comparison to the millions of the former Poland-Lithuania ('Pale'), where over 80 percent of all Jews worlwide were still lving in the early 20th century.

Edit: why not check the basic facts of the expulsion of Jews from Western Europe yourself? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Europe Persecution of Jews in Europe increased in the High Middle Ages in the context of the Christian Crusades. In the First Crusade (1096) flourishing communities on the Rhine and the Danube were utterly destroyed. In the Second Crusade (1147) the Jews in France were subject to frequent massacres. The Crusades were followed by expulsions, including in, 1290, the banishing of all English Jews. In 1396, 100,000 Jews were expelled from France; and, in 1421 thousands were expelled from Austria. Many of the expelled Jews fled to Poland. Etc.

Johan, let's settle the matter once and for all. If I understand you correctly, you claim that there was a period of time, measurable in centuries, during which not a single Jew lived, and not a single Jewish community could be found, within the area defined by the clockwise considered geographical extremities of Portugal, England and Scandinavia, Holy Roman Empire and Italy. Is this correct? if yes, please complete the following sentence:

The above statement is true from the ___th century to the ___th century.

OK, you won't find much difference in substance (theology, thinking) between e.g. St. Augustine - my founding father of preference, but of course I'm diehard Latin/Western  - and this fine Humanist, IMO.

I agree on Calvin being heavily influenced by St. Augustine.

I'll also give you the obvious, namely Western. But Latin? Hardly. You are Frankish through and through. 

I disagree on Calvin being a humanist, let alone a fine one.

But let's unite bhind the banner of the Nicean creed

Excellent idea! Now take the next step: abjure predestination, sola fide and Sola Scriptura  --- and thus you'll eventually become a genuine Latin in spirit. 

[Todd]

IRS says many who prepaid property taxes may still face cap on deductions

Tax avoidance is only bad when other people do it.

[Christo]

Johan, let's settle the matter once and for all. If I understand you correctly, you claim that there was a period of time, measurable in centuries, during which not a single Jew lived, and not a single Jewish community could be found, within the area defined by the clockwise considered geographical extremities of Portugal, England and Scandinavia, Holy Roman Empire and Italy. Is this correct?

Why raise this theme to an absurdity? What I repeat is common historical knowledge: between 1095 and 1648 most jewish communities in Western Europe were persecuted and driven into exile, many massacred. You'll not find many communities with a continuous history from Sweden to Portugal and every place in between. Exceptions? Southern areas that were only later added to the kingdom of France, some free cities and other dominians among the >2000 jurisdictions of the Holy Roman Empire (though many emperors themselves expelled Jews from those territories they had a direct say in, among them Charles V in the 16th century). In short: most Jews in Western Europe only settled there from the 17th and especially 18th century onwards, the majority only as late as the 19th century (e.g. in England, France, the German and Low countries).

I'll also give you the obvious, namely Western. But Latin? Hardly.

I refer to the equation Occidens = Western = Latin = religion & culture. It didn't escape my attention that there are also Latin speaking people around, some of them Orthodox - but that's another theme. 

As about Calvin and predestination - I persevere! : if I find time, quod paene non, I'll start a thread about Calvinism & other Frivolities with the aim of converting all those who wander in utter darkness.

Edit:

You are Frankish through and through. 

How dare you! I'm a SAXON, the Franks are our worst enemies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxon_Wars
(Again, I know quite well that all Latins were - are - called Franks in the Middle East, Romania including. In return my students normally only see "Santa Claus religion" - and react with dismay when I try to explain that there is really something Christian under the pagan surface.) 

[Christo]

I disagree on Calvin being a humanist, let alone a fine one.

One cannot disagree about a typical humanist scholar to be a humanist scholar; Calvin was one, as were e.g. Morus, Montaigne, Erasmus, Melanchton, and all the like. One can only discuss his qualifications as a scholar: but I read him and can testify to his qualities, that I hold in higher esteem than those of Martin Luther, to mention another name (& one who was well educated, but not a humanist).

[kishnevi]

Why raise this theme to an absurdity? What I repeat is common historical knowledge: between 1095 and 1648 most jewish communities in Western Europe were persecuted and driven into exile, many massacred. You'll not find many communities with a continuous history from Sweden to Portugal and every place in between. Exceptions? Southern areas that were only later added to the kingdom of France, some free cities and other dominians among the >2000 jurisdictions of the Holy Roman Empire (though many emperors themselves expelled Jews from those territories they had a direct say in, among them Charles V in the 16th century). In short: most Jews in Western Europe only settled there from the 17th and especially 18th century onwards, the majority only as late as the 19th century (e.g. in England, France, the German and Low countries).
I refer to the equation Occidens = Western = Latin = religion & culture. It didn't escape my attention that there are also Latin speaking people around, some of them Orthodox - but that's another theme. 

As about Calvin and predestination - I persevere! : if I find time, quod paene non, I'll start a thread about Calvinism & other Frivolities with the aim of converting all those who wander in utter darkness.

Edit: How dare you! I'm a SAXON, the Franks are our worst enemies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxon_Wars
(Again, I know quite well that all Latins were - are - called Franks in the Middle East, Romania including. In return my students normally only see "Santa Claus religion" - and react with dismay when I try to explain that there is really something Christian under the pagan surface.) 

For much, if not all, of the 16th century, Jews could not openly live as Jews in England, France, and any part of the Spanish Empire (which included Sicily and any portion of the Italian peninsula under Spanish rule), Portugal, and what is now Latin America.  In the Holy Roman Empire and lands under the rule of the Austrian Hapsburgs, they were banned by localities, not by general decree.

[Florestan]

Edit: How dare you! I'm a SAXON, the Franks are our worst enemies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxon_Wars (Again, I know quite well that all Latins were - are - called Franks in the Middle East, Romania including.

Saxons, Franks, all the same: Germanic tribes which usurped the name Latin / Roman, incurring the legitimate ire of the true Latins / Romans. Since AD 476 there has been no Roman power in all Western Europe, except the brief period when Justinian restored the imperial authority in some of the former provinces. To call Latin people named Liutprand, Wamba or Hlodowig is an insult to Caesar, Trajanus or Marcus Aurelius.   

In return my students normally only see "Santa Claus religion" - and react with dismay when I try to explain that there is really something Christian under the pagan surface.) 

Why, of course the One, True, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic religion, and its corresponding culture,  is one of joyful conviviality, with merriment, good food, good drink, and liberality, including to children. I'm sure that those of your students who had, or will have, the good fortune of attending a traditional Romanian Christmas or Easter or even some other feast that Calvinism suppressed or never heard about, from the religious service to the subsequent meal and merriment, will never forget the experience and will long for repeating it. 

As for Santa Claus, its super-commercial, ultra-consumerist incarnation is a quite recent import from the USA, a country with strong Calvinist roots.