Luigi Nono

[petrarch]

I know that there is a "general" 'Tragedy of Listening'- and I know then general meaning of it as it relates to the post-'50s- I mean, it's obvious that people listen less than they used to. But, I was also directly relating this to Nono's penchant for flippin outrageously loud cacophany- and THEN tells us there's a 'tragedy of listening'- I mean, I thought that was pretty funny. But, then, he gets all quiet,... ok. Maybe I lost my hearing listening to 'Luz' and can't HEAR your pppppp!!!!

The 'tragedy' here has nothing to do with a decline in listening habits nor is it any sort of social or cultural commentary. Nono always composed with sound, i.e. the actual resulting sound from a given instrument producing a given note, with its inner life, timbral quality and rich fluctuations. The 'tragedy of listening' is literally an "unfolding drama between the sound and the act of listening to it" (in the words of Massimo Cacciari). The idea is to "awaken the ear, the eyes, thinking, understanding."

The pppppp has to do with his aesthetics of the exploration of sound in the regions of most instability, something that Nono sought, particularly in his late period: The uncertainty, the uncontrollability, the fragility of sound.

But, how can you accuse me of looking for a communist under every rock with Nono (...) based on what's going on in this country I can only guess that Nono voted for Obama the second time (...) "You WILL like this melody- it was written for our dear leader after all". (...) it's that typically "duped leftie" thing

Need I say more?

now he's having second thoughts? What was it that Nono saw/heard that changed his mind?

He was a Communist through and through, all the way to the end, though an eternal idealist. His disappointment was not seeing that vision of justice, solidarity and the human condition made real.

[snyprrr]

The 'tragedy' here has nothing to do with a decline in listening habits nor is it any sort of social or cultural commentary. Nono always composed with sound, i.e. the actual resulting sound from a given instrument producing a given note, with its inner life, timbral quality and rich fluctuations. The 'tragedy of listening' is literally an "unfolding drama between the sound and the act of listening to it" (in the words of Massimo Cacciari). The idea is to "awaken the ear, the eyes, thinking, understanding."

The pppppp has to do with his aesthetics of the exploration of sound in the regions of most instability, something that Nono sought, particularly in his late period: The uncertainty, the uncontrollability, the fragility of sound.

Need I say more?

He was a Communist through and through, all the way to the end, though an eternal idealist. His disappointment was not seeing that vision of justice, solidarity and the human condition made real.

ok, the 'tragedy of listening' is the fact that a note has a birth, then a life, and then a death, and that, as Existentialists, we look at that note and think of the tragedy of its death? Like the gnarled tree?

To me, the tragedy oi listening is, Eat your broccoli!!

I just want to be clear then: There Is Absolutely NO Pretension in Nono Whatsoever? None?


I made the cursory Wiki effort, and must confess to some giggling at Nono's and Stockhausen's spat. The way Wiki tells it, Nono was quite the butthurt type (over the words of 'Sospeso'), and Stockhausen comes off as the playground know-it-all. Both seem like bullies. I don't know,... add Boulez's brand of asshole to the mix and I can see that Darmstadt must have been a barrel full 'o' monkees, a real joy. (not saying I wouldn't have wanted to be there myself)


I don't know, how can I NOT take Nono's "through and through" Ideology into mind when questioning what I'm listening to, especially if that music has a peculiarly singular quality to it. Feldman writes "quiet" music, like Late Nono, but it's obvious that the two share differing world views based on how they put their notes (proles) on the paper?

I guess because I'm always interested in what GOD- how- God would place notes down,...

I tend to think that a person's Beliefs absolutely color the way they put notes down on a page. Find me a Calvinist Composer and a Communist Composer and I certainly think we might get some interesting comparisons (in a Game Test).


But, was Nono really a Communist, or really a Zionist? Or... is there even a difference?





I was listening to Gielen's 'Tarkovsky',... what to say?... Feldman+Scelsi? It's just that Nono is asking for Sacred Music with No God, and,... what?... if there is no God, how are his notes not empty? It even seems that, if 'Prometeo' is, by default, called 'Sacred Music', isn't it interesting how "empty" it all feels, filling that giant space with quiet (uneasy) tones. There's certainly no VICTORY in Nono's (non) God Music. Is 'Prometeo' the Mass of Nono's Communist Utopia? In that case, I predict a rash of suicides.

So, of course I suffuse Belief into every note every Composer writes. Problem is, one RARELY finds a Composer....


ah, I'm too distraught this morning- I'll start saying even dumber stuff if I continue ... had some things happen last night... stress ache today... Nono fate will have to wait (yea right, ahaha)


Sorry if I seem like I'm being a dick here... Political Composers always get my goat it seems... I always want to dig up their bones and beat them afresh...


Ultimately it comes down to God vs. Man with me, and I have no patience with Man-Centered Composers who a) Lift Up Man, and then b) Lament When Weak Man Fails. So, there is No Hope in their ultimate WorldView, and they write the most awfully depressing 'Sacred Music'. Stockhausen?

But, Composers in general tend to be Man-Centered... whaddaya gonna do??

I just don't want Schoenberg, Nono, Boulez, or Xenakis, or any one of them being Director of the Music Ministry (of the State) and being in charge of leading the 'worship of the congregation' Again, they might as well hand out razor blades (with instructions) instead of the wine and bread thing.

Atheistm Communist, what's the dif? It's all depressing, Man-Centered religion that has no hope,... and yes, it IS Religion with a Capital 'R'. How is it not?



I Am the most brutish man who ever lived, and have no understanding of all the delicate, subtle delicae that MUST be invoked in order for the incense to work. When I hear 'Prometeo' I don't hear a Call to The Living God, but a Requiem to That Which Is Dead.


I am going off to look into Gramsci, ... yaaay ... what joy my day brings- I must study Italian Communism so that I can "get" Nono. What happens if I get him, and there is a lingering BUT?



One man sees a 1000 year old statue/work of art......... another man sees an idol to death......one thinks, "Saving this is Good", the other "Destroying this is Good" (Destroying to Save/Saving to Destroy)

Ultimately, even if one thinks God is an illusion, how can one deny that what people think, and how they react to the word God IS how the world is, and who's right and who's wrong really have nothing to do with it as per boots on the ground. Eh?

Signed,

The Conquerer Worm

[Karl Henning]

I just want to be clear then

That's a change!

[petrarch]

ok, the 'tragedy of listening' is the fact that a note has a birth, then a life, and then a death, and that, as Existentialists, we look at that note and think of the tragedy of its death? Like the gnarled tree?

That is too literal and superficial.

It's a tragedy in the classical sense, a serious play. There are no visuals, no staged action, because it is all in the sound <-> ear interaction.

Worth reading:
http://www.festival-automne.com/Publish/archive_pdf/FAP_1987_MU_PRG.pdf
http://www.festival-automne.com/Publish/archive_pdf/FAP_2000_MU_01_PRGS.pdf

[snyprrr]

That is too literal and superficial.

It's a tragedy in the classical sense, a serious play. There are no visuals, no staged action, because it is all in the sound <-> ear interaction.

Worth reading:
http://www.festival-automne.com/Publish/archive_pdf/FAP_1987_MU_PRG.pdf
http://www.festival-automne.com/Publish/archive_pdf/FAP_2000_MU_01_PRGS.pdf

Link no worky 4 me


OK, I see what you're getting at,... just... a... little...


I'm afraid, though, that since the last couple of days, "reality" has crept into my life, and Nono's probably not the Composer I should be looking into this week (I think I need some Haydn or something... birds and surf!). I did bring the 'Stille' with me, so, I'll save that for 3am.


I might have James's attention- so, I'm just warning you that shit might still over from the Stockhausen Thread! (e-e-excellent! )

[Artem]

Relistened to this CD recently. Does anyone here like it?

[petrarch]

Relistened to this CD recently. Does anyone here like it?

Yes, thoroughly: It is certainly better than the aging recording on Ricordi and the live one on the Experimentalstudio retrospective box, and an SACD to boot. The one on Neos is worth checking out as it was done by most of the original performers.

[Mandryka]

Does anyone know if there's a copy of the libretto of Prometeo online? English or French - I found it in Italian but I can't read Italian.

[Mandryka]

Worth reading:
http://www.festival-automne.com/Publish/archive_pdf/FAP_1987_MU_PRG.pdf
http://www.festival-automne.com/Publish/archive_pdf/FAP_2000_MU_01_PRGS.pdf

Thanks for doing this - much appreciated.

[Mandryka]

I've had a day of listening to early Nono, Canto di vita e d'amore, and Canto Sospeso. I really wonder if more humane, more moving, music has been written by anyone ever.

The thing that started this off was a recording of Nono himself conducting Canto di vita, very passionately, from a 1963 London prom with Richard Lewis and Dorothy Dorow. It's on symphonyshare and is just wonderful, as you would expect. Abbado's performance of Canto sospeso doesn't come close to the intensity of Nono's performance of the earlier cantata.

Was Richard Lewis politically engaged?  I didn't know he was interested in 20th century music, though I believe he sang in Moses and Aaron.

[Mandryka]

Nono gave his music titles. "Hay que caminar" soñando - "But we must go on" dreaming." Like something by Samuel Beckett.

Why? What's his late music trying to say?

[ritter]

Nono gave his music titles. "Hay que caminar" soñando - "But we must go on" dreaming." Like something by Samuel Beckett.

Why? What's his late music trying to say?

AFAIK, Nono used some variations  (for lack of a better term) on the verses "caminante, no hay camino /se hace camino al andar" (from the collection Proverbios y Cantares by  Antonio Machado ) in the title of this and some other pieces, e.g. Caminantes - Ayacucho. I've read that Machado's verse is taken from an inscription on a wall  in a monastery in Toledo, but haven't been able to verify this.

Saludos, caminante...

EDIT:Some sources say that what Nono read in Toledo was a graffiti quoting Machado's verse, which seems more plausible; the Machado verse is hugely popular in Spanish-speaking countries because it was used by popular songwriter and singer Joan Manuel Serrat in a very successful song recorded in 1969 (which would explain the graffiti).

The third third work in the "Caminante Trilogy" is No hay caminos, hay que caminar...Andrej Tarkowskij ...

[CRCulver]

Over at La Folia there is a review of a recent series of Boston concerts dedicated to Nono's music. How lucky people there were to hear so much late Nono in performance, and it's strange I didn't see these concerts talked about elsewhere before.

[Karl Henning]

Over at La Folia there is a review of a recent series of Boston concerts dedicated to Nono's music. How lucky people there were to hear so much late Nono in performance, and it's strange I didn't see these concerts talked about elsewhere before.

Thanks for this!  Grant Chu Chuvell would not have known simply from the audience, but our David Harris sang alto while he was conducting, so there were indeed 12 voices singing.

[not edward]

Over at La Folia there is a review of a recent series of Boston concerts dedicated to Nono's music. How lucky people there were to hear so much late Nono in performance, and it's strange I didn't see these concerts talked about elsewhere before.

Wow, that sounds fantastic. If I'd known about these performances I'd have been seriously tempted to fly down for them.

[GioCar]

I've just read a recent interview with Zubin Mehta, saying that he would really like to conduct Intolleranza 1960 "a flaming protest against intolerance and oppression and the violation of human dignity" at La Scala.

My thoughts: I would really like to see every opera house in Europe staging Intolleranza 1960 at least once in the nearest future. Maybe something's going to change before we reach (again) the point of no return.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65QPTF5npwQ

[Mahlerian]

I've just read a recent interview with Zubin Mehta, saying that he would really like to conduct Intolleranza 1960 "a flaming protest against intolerance and oppression and the violation of human dignity" at La Scala.

My thoughts: I would really like to see every opera house in Europe staging Intolleranza 1960 at least once in the nearest future. Maybe something's going to change before we reach (again) the point of no return.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65QPTF5npwQ

Nono would no doubt have been very dismayed by the current political situation, both in its humanitarian crises and in the increased popular acceptance of fascist ideology in Europe (and the US).  Perhaps there would have been an Intolleranza 2016.

[snyprrr]

I've just read a recent interview with Zubin Mehta, saying that he would really like to conduct Intolleranza 1960 "a flaming protest against intolerance and oppression and the violation of human dignity" at La Scala.

My thoughts: I would really like to see every opera house in Europe staging Intolleranza 1960 at least once in the nearest future. Maybe something's going to change before we reach (again) the point of no return.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65QPTF5npwQ

China?, Africa?, Middle East?, how bout there??? why does only Europe have to face the wrath of Social Justice? Performances of it in Europe would only confirm in the people that their leaders view them afar off and are lecturing them on delicae of cultural enrichment.

Nono was a Communist and should have his own house cleaned before sorry... lol,... see what happens? ranting happens...

Europe's Gonna Burn,... looks that way...

Only Muslims Wanted for German Police Force

[snyprrr]

I completely love Nono's music but somehow I keep forgetting about him.
I even missed him of my top 50 composers list      

A composer doing many things I like and tickling my imagination.  He seems to get a certain whiff of ignoring that Scelsi gets but from me and in the contemporary classical world in general 

Polfonica monodia ritmica  is.a wonderful and unique sounding culmination of Webern, Varese and Messiaen (possibly towards the end), very different from the Darmstadt crew of vaguely the same time

I have a special place for the String Quartet, but, then... ... ... thinking... ... ... the Scelsian last Ochestral Works... ... ... Prometeo... ... ... ...  I dread hearing the "searing" works- I'd rather hear a Composer mimic bubbles rather than riots- though, as per, it's cool when Xakky does it! LOL


"I am Angry Composer Man, Hear Me Roar!! "

[snyprrr]

I thought you loved intense music??? 

Sometimes I can handle poo poo talk when I'm eating, sometimes I have a weaker stomach... right now, the mere thought of Nono's 'O Sole...' would give me a stress headache... like I said, maaaybe 'Prometeo'- though, NORMALLY, I wouldn't be able to handle THAT (too quiet!). Yes, I fluctuate between total balls-in, and scaredy-cat, lol...

You know those headaches where if you even move an inch it starts throbbin... times like these I need to stay away from the cacophony... but, sometimes even Feldman won't work...

Maybe I think too hard?



If I'm stuck on Haydn, I just can't get into the Modern, - but, if I'm into the Modern, I can handle a little Haydn