What Opera Are You Listening to Now?

[Handelian]

Must confess that guy Werther gets on my nerves. Last time Kaufmann sang it he said he had problems with the character and wanted to tell him to 'snap out of it'. I keep wanting to tell him to get a job!

[Carlo Gesualdo]

hello I am listening to Jacob Clemens on Huelgas ensemble and that it, have a nice pink coat wonderful way, blue sky cloudless heaven, a bright sun light and that it  folks I am depress I got suck almost 1400$ I never gonna see my money back no one while back me up, not even my parent in my sorrow $$$ 

[Roasted Swan]

Must confess that guy Werther gets on my nerves. Last time Kaufmann sang it he said he had problems with the character and wanted to tell him to 'snap out of it'. I keep wanting to tell him to get a job!

not operatic but I always get cross at Angel Clare in Tess of the D'Urbervilles.  If he were just a little bit sensible and not quite so precious the rest of the story wouldn't happen.  Period morality or not he's just a wimp!

[Scion7]

Well, considering the character is based partly on real-life person(s), who obviously suffered from a mental disorder, I think it best to take him as he is.  The novel is a great piece of literature.

[Handelian]

Came yesterday. All set for a rollocking time if what I've heard already is anything to go by.

[Biffo]

not operatic but I always get cross at Angel Clare in Tess of the D'Urbervilles.  If he were just a little bit sensible and not quite so precious the rest of the story wouldn't happen.  Period morality or not he's just a wimp!

I also think he is a hypocrite and it is definitely dodgy the way he goes after Tess' younger sister at the end. At least the odious Alec D'Urbeville married Tess even if his motives seem unclear.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Came yesterday. All set for a rollocking time if what I've heard already is anything to go by.

I enjoy Jennifer Larmore's voice/singing.  Don't know the rest of the cast, but am looking forward to your review! 

PD

[Tsaraslondon]

Must confess that guy Werther gets on my nerves. Last time Kaufmann sang it he said he had problems with the character and wanted to tell him to 'snap out of it'. I keep wanting to tell him to get a job!

A typically modern response to a movement that was prevalent in early nineteenth century Romanticism. The original Goethe story, told in a series of letters, was so popular that it started a phenomenon known as "Werther Fever", young men dressing up as Werther is described in the novel and even led to a series of copycat suicides, where the book woud be found at the scene. You have to remember that  Werther is not a middle aged man, but a young man with all the seething passions of a young hothead. His character is central to the whole German "Sturm und Drang" movement.

[Tsaraslondon]

not operatic but I always get cross at Angel Clare in Tess of the D'Urbervilles.  If he were just a little bit sensible and not quite so precious the rest of the story wouldn't happen.  Period morality or not he's just a wimp!

Angel Clare's reaction to Tess's relevations always upsets me too, but you have to remember the time it was written. Hardy was much berated for subtitling his novel "The Story of a Pure Woman". Contemporary commentators just couldn't understand his point of view. 

[Handelian]

A typically modern response to a movement that was prevalent in early nineteenth century Romanticism. The original Goethe story, told in a series of letters, was so popular that it started a phenomenon known as "Werther Fever", young men dressing up as Werther is described in the novel and even led to a series of copycat suicides, where the book woud be found at the scene. You have to remember that  Werther is not a middle aged man, but a young man with all the seething passions of a young hothead. His character is central to the whole German "Sturm und Drang" movement.

Yes b ut I don't think the 'Werther Fever' (complete with suicides) was a terribly good thing.  Sign of young men with nothing to do. Some of us have also been thwarted in love in the modern age but we did realise we had to get on with life and earn a living.

[Handelian]

Came yesterday. All set for a rollocking time if what I've heard already is anything to go by.

Listening to this. Spiffing performance full of verve. Lamore excellent as the girl and Gimenez (a name I hadn't heard of) a really fine bel canto tenor. Everyone else really good. What's not to like with Rossini and comedy? .

[Tsaraslondon]

Yes b ut I don't think the 'Werther Fever' (complete with suicides) was a terribly good thing.  Sign of young men with nothing to do. Some of us have also been thwarted in love in the modern age but we did realise we had to get on with life and earn a living.

I'm not saying it was a good thing. I'm just saying it's understandable in its context. However it is not confined to the early nineteenth century. According to Wikipedia,

Examples of celebrities whose suicides have triggered suicide clusters include Ruan Lingyu, the Japanese musicians Yukiko Okada and hide, the South Korean actress Choi Jin-Sil, whose suicide caused suicide rates to rise by 162.3%[34] and Marilyn Monroe, whose death was followed by an increase of 200 more suicides than average for that August month.[2] Another famous case is the self-immolation of Mohamed Bouazizi, a Tunisian street vendor who set himself on fire on December 17, 2010, an act that was a catalyst for the Tunisian Revolution and sparked the Arab Spring, including several men who emulated Bouazizi's act. A 2017 study published in JAMA Internal Medicine found the online series 13 Reasons Why which chronicled a fictional teen's suicide was associated with an increase in suicide related Internet searches, including a 26% increase in searches for "how to commit suicide", an 18% increase for "commit suicide" and 9% increase for "how to kill yourself."[35] On May 29, 2019, research published in JAMA Psychiatry outlined an association of increased suicides in 10- to 19-year-olds in the United States in the 3 months following the release of 13 Reasons Why, consistent with a media contagion of suicide in the show.

Nowadays, when we are much more aware of mental health and depression, if anything Werther's tragedy becomes even more believable. Someone just telling him to "snap out of it" is never going to work.

[Handelian]

Nowadays, when we are much more aware of mental health and depression, if anything Werther's tragedy becomes even more believable. Someone just telling him to "snap out of it" is never going to work.

Yes but we must separate fact from fiction. Werther is a fictional character and not a real person. We have dealt with people with mental health problems and someone like Werther would not be described as mentally ill. I was talking about when I'm listening to the fictional opera not dealing with someone in real life. We have to make a distinction. I listen to opera as a recreation and have dealt with people as a profession!
In the case of Marilyn Monroe mental illness did not come into it but rather an apparent attachment syndrome which was linked to her dysfunctional past. Her death was very unlikely suicide but probably an accidental OD or even murder, although the latter is unlikely. The same with Elvis Presley in that his death was caused by the dysfunctional lifestyle he lived and the prescription drugs he was taking. Glenn Gould as well for that matter. There was someone who was possibly autistic but not mentally ill as such.
I have known cases of people commit suicide when some tragedy hits them but they are very rare thankfully. A man I knew lost his wife and put all his affairs in order and went to join her by OD. Very sad. Nice man but there was just him and his wife and he couldn't live without her. No sign of mental illness or anything. Who knows what you can do in that situation as he kept himself to himself. No one knew what he was contemplating. Quite unlike Werther though. But anyway we're talking about opera!

[Tsaraslondon]

Yes but we must separate fact from fiction. Werther is a fictional character and not a real person. We have dealt with people with mental health problems and someone like Werther would not be described as mentally ill. I was talking about when I'm listening to the fictional opera not dealing with someone in real life. We have to make a distinction. I listen to opera as a recreation and have dealt with people as a profession!
In the case of Marilyn Monroe mental illness did not come into it but rather an apparent attachment syndrome which was linked to her dysfunctional past. Her death was very unlikely suicide but probably an accidental OD or even murder, although the latter is unlikely. The same with Elvis Presley in that his death was caused by the dysfunctional lifestyle he lived and the prescription drugs he was taking. Glenn Gould as well for that matter. There was someone who was possibly autistic but not mentally ill as such.
I have known cases of people commit suicide when some tragedy hits them but they are very rare thankfully. A man I knew lost his wife and put all his affairs in order and went to join her by OD. Very sad. Nice man but there was just him and his wife and he couldn't live without her. No sign of mental illness or anything. Who knows what you can do in that situation as he kept himself to himself. No one knew what he was contemplating. Quite unlike Werther though. But anyway we're talking about opera!

Why must we separate fact from fiction? Opera is surely an excellent place to represent the extremes of human nature. In any case, and as I pointed out earlier, placing Werther in its historical context makes it easier to understand its theme, which is really not that much from different from the themes of Schubert's Winterreise or Schumann's Dichterliebe.

[Tsaraslondon]

If you think the tune to which Rosina sings Io sono docile in Il Barbiere di Siviglia perfectly establishes the sweet side of her character, you might be surprised to find it also serves as part of Elisabetta's entrance aria in this earlier tragic opera by Rossini. You might also be surprised to find that the overture, which always seems the perfect curtain-raiser for the comic opera is the same as the one for this tragic opera, although it had also served as the overture for an even earlier opera, Aureliano in Palmira. The closing section of the overture also puts in an appearance in the finale of Act I of Elisabetta.

This recording was based on performances at the Aix-en-Provence festival in 1975, though the part of Leicester, sung here by the more well-known José Carreras, was there taken by by Gösta Winbergh. Valerie Masterson, who had recently made her French debut as Manon in Toulouse had made quite an impression in the seconda donna role of Matilde, and her services were retained for the recording which was made in London the following year. She is excellent in the role and her clear, bright soprano both contrasts and blemds with Caballé's richer tones.

Caballé has all the necessary grandeur for the role of Elisabetta. Her coloratura is not always as clean as it might be, but the recording captures her at somewhere near her career best and the voice is arrestingly beautiful. Carreras is golden toned and, as always, dramatically committed and Ugo Benelli perfectly cast as the nasty Norfolk.

The LSO play beautifully for Gianfranco Masini and all in all this is a worthy version of Rossini's early dramma per musica.

[Handelian]

Why must we separate fact from fiction? Opera is surely an excellent place to represent the extremes of human nature. In any case, and as I pointed out earlier, placing Werther in its historical context makes it easier to understand its theme, which is really not that much from different from the themes of Schubert's Winterreise or Schumann's Dichterliebe.

Simply because Werther is not a real character. Opera is not reality. I don't reckon that Schubert's great song cycles represent reality, much as I love them. They are a romantic's dream.

[Tsaraslondon]

Simply because Werther is not a real character. Opera is not reality. I don't reckon that Schubert's great song cycles represent reality, much as I love them. They are a romantic's dream.

Agreed. Which is why I don't quite understand your original point about Werther having to "Snap out of it and get a proper job".

[Handelian]

Agreed. Which is why I don't quite understand your original point about Werther having to "Snap out of it and get a proper job".

I was talking about my reaction to the character in the opera who is fictional. He is not a character in real life. Also to the remark Kaufman made about him. It wouldn't have happened if Werther had got a job. People need work to occupy themselves. You don't find it happening in Africa where people are so busy trying to keep body and soul together they don't have time for that

[Tsaraslondon]

I was talking about my reaction to the character in the opera who is fictional. He is not a character in real life. Also to the remark Kaufman made about him. It wouldn't have happened if Werther had got a job. People need work to occupy themselves. You don't find it happening in Africa where people are so busy trying to keep body and soul together they don't have time for that

I'm sorry I seem to be missing your point. On the one hand you talk about your reaction to a fictional character in an opera and on the other start talking about real life and people today, which has absolutely nothing to do with the opera. I just tried to point out the character of Werther is much easier to understand if you take into account the Sturm und Drang movement, of which the original Goethe novel was a part. Works of art sometimes need to be put in context for us to understand them better.

[Handelian]

I'm sorry I seem to be missing your point. On the one hand you talk about your reaction to a fictional character in an opera and on the other start talking about real life and people today, which has absolutely nothing to do with the opera. I just tried to point out the character of Werther is much easier to understand if you take into account the Sturm und Drang movement, of which the original Goethe novel was a part. Works of art sometimes need to be put in context for us to understand them better.

I think we are both missing each other's points. I was only making the point initially that the character gets on my nerves mooning around. It was a very popular character in the romantic movement among people who had nothin else to occupy them. At the time the majority of the population were too busy trying to scrape a living and to avoid starvation. Life at the time was full of harsh realities