Takashi Asahina

[rw1883]

Has there been a previous thread on Asahina from the old forum?  I did a search on the new forum and could only find a few mentions of this conductor.  I've been listening to the Sibelius 2nd from 1978 and it's incredible!  I have a few favorites of this symphony (Beecham-BBC, Barbirolli-Chesky, Bernstein-DG) and this one is right up there. 

Other favorites by Asahina: Bruckner 8 (1994-Canyon), Bruckner 9 (Chicago 1996), Bruckner 6 (1984-JVC), Leonore #3 (1972), Mahler 3 (1995)...I wish his recordings were available for a REASONABLE price.

I was wondering if other members had some thoughts on this great conductor.  Any favorite recordings? 

[PerfectWagnerite]

I'd be interested to hear about what others think also. The only thing I know is that I keep seeing his (Bruckner) recordings selling for outrageous high prices. I guess if something is rare it sells for a lot, even if it may be garbage.

[rw1883]

I'd be interested to hear about what others think also. The only thing I know is that I keep seeing his (Bruckner) recordings selling for outrageous high prices. I guess if something is rare it sells for a lot, even if it may be garbage.

Yes, the Bruckner recordings are unbelievably expensive.  The only set I have is the JVC with 0-9, with the only dud being #4.  I bought it a couple of years ago through Amazon.jp for a small fortune.  When Gunter Wand died in early 2002 I read a few articles about Wand that mentioned Asahina and it made me curious.  I'm guessing the proximity of their deaths had something to do with it.  I haven't encountered much garbage listening to Asahina's recordings, although his Ring has a few singers that stink it up.

[M forever]

I only have one Bruckner cycle from Asahina, from what i have heard, I find although his artistic direction is admirable, his orchestras were very unfit to play Bruckner's music, namely the Brass sections are incredibly weak, can't the Japanese ever do the brass right? They all sound as if they didn't eat their breakfast!

What a dumb thing to say. I don't know these particular recordings, but guess what, just like everywhere else, there are good and not so good musicians in Japan. Even if the playing in these recordings is as weak as you say, they still have plenty of really very good musicians in Japan who are extremely well trained and have a solid and deep understanding of Western music. They also have the right respectful attitude towards the cultures the music comes from and study hard to learn it. With or without breakfast.

I don't know that many of Asahina's recordings, but this live recording here is very good:

[Choo Choo]

I only have one Bruckner cycle from Asahina, from what i have heard, I find although his artistic direction is admirable, his orchestras were very unfit to play Bruckner's music, namely the Brass sections are incredibly weak, can't the Japanese ever do the brass right?

I wonder which cycle that is.  I have the set from the early 90s with the Osaka PO, and while it's not my favourite, I don't recall the playing as sounding especially problematic.  Of course some of them are live concert recordings where the occasional wobble is to be expected.

If you want an example of fine Bruckner playing from a Japanese ensemble, you could try the recording of #8 by the NHKSO under von Matacic.  Terrific performance.

Another Asahina recording well worth hearing is this one:



Dating from 1975, it's the Osaka PO again, recorded in concert in the Marmor Hall (rather than the basilica) in St Florian.  There's an extra little flourish in the gap just before the start of the last movement, when you hear the hush as Asahina (presumably) raises his baton ... and in that hush you can hear the distant sound of bells ringing out across the monastery for the hour of 5 o'clock ... first one peal and then another ... which Asahina allows to die away before eventually continuing.

[Larry Rinkel]

His recordings are hard to find in the U.S. and generally very expensive if you can do so. I only have one of his Bruckner symphonies, #7 on Canyon, and I thought it very fine (perhaps the brass players had time for some bacon and eggs that morning). I also acquired his Lied von der Erde but sold it, because despite the good conducting and playing, the two Japanese soloists were unlistenable.

[jochanaan]

all i wanted to say is that their Brass is lacking, whether it's the Osaka, or the Tokyo Metro, new japan, etc.... they just didn't have quite the 'sound' that most western orchestras have.

I don't doubt Japanese's musicianship as usual, they have good strings, but they aren't playing Beethoven or Schubert! they are playing Bruckner! take my advice, stay away from it, you might want to insult me all you like, but i am saving you from buying a very below-average yet overly priced cycle.

Strange you should think that.  They must have been having a bad night.  The only time I've heard an Asahina recording was years ago over the radio, Bruckner's Fourth with the Osaka Phil, and I thought the brass sounded awesome!

[mahlertitan]

it still baffles me though, you guys spent all the time to discuss people like Asahina, when you should spent more time talking about Tintner and Skrowaczewski, why? are they any less competent than Asahina? I don't know what's wrong with you guys, but Skrowaczewski's cycle with Saabrucken is much cheaper than Asahina yet much more fulfilling.

[rw1883]

it still baffles me though, you guys spent all the time to discuss people like Asahina, when you should spent more time talking about Tintner and Skrowaczewski, why? are they any less competent than Asahina? I don't know what's wrong with you guys, but Skrowaczewski's cycle with Saabrucken is much cheaper than Asahina yet much more fulfilling.

There HASN'T been much discussion on Asahina on this forum, so that's why I started this thread.  Maybe there was more discussion on the old forum, but I haven't researched that.  I have the Bruckner cycles you mention (Tintner & Skrowaczewski) plus Karajan, Jochum (DG & EMI), Chailly, the complete cycle on Camerata (Sieghart, Guschlbauer, & Eichhorn), Solti, the Eugene-Georg Jochum set on Tahra (1944-1984), Wand, Celibidache (3-9), and the before-mentioned Asahina (JVC).  I've compared these recordings and put a good deal of effort into hearing as much Bruckner as possible.

The reason I mention this is so you won't think I started this thread with rose-colored Asahina glasses.  I believe the JVC set is uniformly excellent, with the exception of #4.  The Canyons I mentioned and the others are even at a higher level (and the 7th mentioned above from 1975).  To me, he has great ideas about Bruckner from various times in his career.

I'm also curious if members have heard other Asahina besides his Bruckner (any of the Beethoven or Brahms?).  I forgot to mention a live Shostakovich 5th from 1981 that is excellent. 

Paul

[cx]

I only have one Bruckner cycle from Asahina

Which one?

I have some of his Bruckner on the Canyon label and can recommend them all (a 3, 5, 7, 8, and a 9). The playing is generally very good, but I find Asahina's interprations the most interesting.

I only have one of his Bruckner symphonies, #7 on Canyon, and I thought it very fine (perhaps the brass players had time for some bacon and eggs that morning).

I don't know if this is the same one I have, but the one I have takes the first two movements very, very briskly and IMO gives the second half of the symphony more "weight". It's an interesting and unique take and characterized the 7th in a way I had never previously perceived it.

I'm also curious if members have heard other Asahina besides his Bruckner (any of the Beethoven or Brahms?).  I forgot to mention a live Shostakovich 5th from 1981 that is excellent.

Also curious!

--CS

[Lethevich]

I'm one of the (no doubt many) people who had their interest in him kindled or reinforced by recent uploads on Operashare (in decent bitrate for once), especially in Bruckner. In my case, the interest wasn't enough to lay down the money for them over the many equally good and much cheaper options from Europe and the US, but they are still impressive.

[M forever]

all i wanted to say is that their Brass is lacking, whether it's the Osaka, or the Tokyo Metro, new japan, etc.... they just didn't have quite the 'sound' that most western orchestras have.

I don't doubt Japanese's musicianship as usual, they have good strings, but they aren't playing Beethoven or Schubert! they are playing Bruckner! take my advice, stay away from it, you might want to insult me all you like, but i am saving you from buying a very below-average yet overly priced cycle.

Don't worry, you aren't interesting enough to spend much time on "insulting" you, but why should you get away in your turn with stupidly insulting all the fine brass players they have in Japan, too, in one general sweep? They have some really great brass players, and I just wonder what leads you from hearing these recordings which may or may not be lacking in brass playing quality to conluding that Japanese people in general can't play brass instruments well enough to play Bruckner? Do you think there are genetical reasons for that? Or is it just the problem with the breakfast? Which is indeed usually rather light in Japan, like most of their food, actually, so do you think they need to eat more steak and wurst in order to be able to play Bruckner adequately?

[M forever]

if i find these brass weak (oh, these players are only the orchestra members of these orchestras, not the entire Japanese people!), you can disprove me by buying the cycle and listening it for yourself. you, sir, didn't hear the music, and therefore have no authority to say anything.

I knew you would say that sooner or later, but we weren't talking about these particular recordings, but about your generalized remarks about Japanese brass players, which you repeated and reaffirmed, so there is no doubt you "meant" that.

I wonder how much you would have bounced all over the place if someone had said something like "Chinese people generally are weak brass players". Which I actually have no idea about since I never heard a Chinese orchestra. They don't play any role in the world of "classical music" anyway, in stark contrast to the Japanese which have quite a few really good orchestras.

About the growing up part, once you did some of that, beyond your pathetic and pimply 19 and have at least a few achievements in life to look back on apart from sitting in front of the computer in your parents' basement, you will realize that the childish thing to do is to make stupid comments like this about subjects you really have next to no clue about anyway, and then not being able to admit that, and hiding behind, "oh, it was all just a joke". I think we all got that the "breakfast part" was, but the rest wasn't. You repeated your remarks, so there can be no doubt about that.

One big difference between many Japanese in general and people like you is that they have a lot of respect for and knowledge of our musical culture. You have neither, so you should just refrain from making stupid remarks.

[M forever]

I am slightly disapointed, I really expected a little more from you, after all, it's M forever

I told you,

you aren't interesting enough to spend much time on "insulting" you

so sorry, no more elaborate putdowns for you. Maybe some other time. 

You probably think that i am biased

No, I just think you have no clue.

and i reiterate, If i sounded as if i was intentionally trying to insult the Japanese, then you've got me all wrong, if i wanted to do that i would've started a thread in the Diner not here.

Thanks for clarifying that. People here go up the walls when somebody makes any kind of even remotely negative comment about their "country" or "culture", but they typically don't find the same respect for other cultures and people when these get insulted in such a way. I just wanted to make sure our Japanese friends aren't treated in that fashion.

- speaking of which, there is ONE Bruckner's fifth conducted by a guy named Zhu Hui with the Beijing Symphony orchestra, has anyone heard of this recording?

Yes, and it's totally ridiculous. I think that may have something to do with Moo Shoo pork.

[Renfield]

If you'll excuse my butting-in on the whole "Japanese bass" debate, which - to begin with - I find rather crass (pun intended), I'll add to the original discussion that I happened to order the JVC Asahina Bruckner cycle from amazon.jp, shortly before this thread was created.

Thus, I will be able to offer another opinion on the brass, strings, woodwinds and other instruments and instrumentalists of the Japanese orchestras "implicated", as soon as the package arrives; and also about things like the "reading" and "performance", which I trust have not become too passé to be discussed in this thread, by this point...

(In other words - with apologies for the liberally-applied sarcasm - may we please return to the original topic, if possible? That is, Asahina's virtues/vices as a conductor, and notable recordings of his with orchestras who might or might not have eaten their breakfast. Thank you.)

[M forever]

Yes, what I would like to know from someone who actually knows what he is talking about is if the apparent lack of "brass power" on these recordings is a factor of the playing, or maybe just the acoustics/recording? That would be interesting to know.

[Renfield]

well said, i'll do that.
the cycle includes:
0   Asahina with Osaka- fine playing, one of the a few better recordings in the cycle
1   Asahina with New Japan Orchestra - the sound of the recording is not very good, you can hear the prominent Bass strings, but everything else is muffled
2   Asahina with Tokyo Metropolitan Orchestra - great sound, this one is pretty good.
3   Asahina with Osaka- great playing, one of the a few better recordings of the cycle
4   Asahina with Osaka- nothing remarkable about this 4th, mediocre.
5   Asahina with Tokyo Metro- falters in the finale, where the brass seemed to be over powered at times by the strings! at times, the horns are so distant, you can barely hear them, definitely not the recording you want to have if you want to hear every note!
6   Asahina Tokyo symphony- in my opinion the best symphony in this cycle, the brass sound healthy (although inconsistent at times), the recording quality is high.
7   Assahina with Osaka- the Brass gets an F here, i don't know if it was the brass or the way they recorded it, the strings sound healthy and vibrant, while at times you can barely hear the horns. Also, the way the sound reverberates so much, it seemed to me that they recorded this in some cathedral or something, with very poor acoustics.
8   Asahina with Osaka - brass section is weak beyond words can describe, the sound of the recording is horrible to say the least.
9   Asahina with New Japan- a decent recording, it lacks the raw power that you find in for instance in Giulini, but it is listenable.

my beef with the cycle is mainly with the latter symphonies, and the overall poor acoustics.

Hmm... Sounds like the accoustics - no pun intended - could be the cause for any poor brass sound, to begin with. After all, I don't think any conductor in their right mind would allow the brass section of an orchestra performing Bruckner to lag behind the others, performance-wise!

I was anyway planning to supplement the aforementioned JVC cycle with a partial Canyon one, of the late symphonies, at that. You know, variety in interpretation, etc.

But really, Asahina intrigues me like few other conductors have managed to, so far... He has that "something" about him; and so do the brief glimpses into his work that I've already had, which led me to order that cycle in the first place.

[Renfield]

you know, i have nothing against Asahina, i merely say what i hear, and i have heard some rather foul notes in there; but even with those bad performances, there still were a few in the cycle that i would actually recommend to people, mainly the 2nd, 3rd, and the 6th.

Did I imply you did have something against Asahina?

Besides, you said it yourself: "everyone's listening experience is highly unique and subjective." You are most definitely entitled to your opinion, as am I: and if I can actually hear the music myself, even better!

[M forever]

everyone's listening experience is highly unique and subjective, just because A likes it, doesn't mean the B who doesn't like it, is "wrong".

I wasn't talking about liking or not liking. I was asking about the relative technical quality of the playing and how it is represented on these recordings. That has little to do with liking or not liking, more with the ability to hear and perceive and describe these things precisely, and the knowledge to put it into perspective. That is still subjective, but by far not as much as you think. It has more to do with listening experience and exposure to playing on different levels of quality over many years. You are still many, many years away from that, actually, with your attitude and lack of background, you will probably never get there, that's why I was specifically asking of someone who has at least a little clue could tell me more about that. Music making, especially in this kind of music, is much more of a fine craft than an entirely subjective and random activity than you can even begin to guess.

[jochanaan]

Well, it does sound as if the faults could be attributed to the recording engineers.

If memory serves (it didn't in my previous post), the sole Asahina recording I've heard was a live one.

One comment I've heard that seems to be accurate is that, instead of engaging in the sort of flexibility Furtwängler or Jochum or Wand use to such good effect, Asahina keeps his tempos steady as a march, with no loss of expressivity--an "architectural" approach that serves Bruckner very well indeed.

And yes, it would be interesting to hear Asahina in other music.