Brahms Symphony Cycles

[Obradovic]

I've been very impressed with Harnoncourt's Berlin cycle the last few weeks, I resisted it for a long time, but that was so wrong, it's an amazing cycle.

Very well played, sure, but... aren't Harnoncourt a bit... how to say it?... a bit 'pastoral' in his overall approach? I mean voltage is consistently rather low thoughout the cycle. Maybe the recording is to blame. I perhaps have to give a second chance to Nikolaus after all... 

[Geo Dude]

After stumbling on samples of this disc I ordered it.  If it turns out as good as it seems, I'll probably spring for the other installments in the cycle.

[asin]B00004TZT2[/asin]

Make sure to let us know what you think.

[Mandryka]

Very well played, sure, but... aren't Harnoncourt a bit... how to say it?... a bit 'pastoral' in his overall approach? I mean voltage is consistently rather low thoughout the cycle. Maybe the recording is to blame. I perhaps have to give a second chance to Nikolaus after all...

That's true, it is low voltage at least in 1,2 and 4. I think that's a plus point rather than a problem. I liked his 1 a lot because it's so gentle, quiet, noble, moderate emotionally, joyful, lyrical and full of changing textures.  Who would have thought that this of all symphonies could be played like that?

What you don't have is tension, excitement and strong emotion. But if you want that there's no shortage of recordings on offer.

And generally I thought the set was full of interesting things.

I haven't heard the 3.

[Parsifal]

Make sure to let us know what you think.

Had a chance to listen today. 

I enjoyed it.  It is a live recording (I wasn't aware of this until listening) and this gives it a sense of occasion.  It is not one of those studio affairs where the slightest thing is off and the producer announces, "ok, let's go back to bar 68 and see if we can get a cleaner entrance from the oboe."  I get the impression that Janson is swinging for the fences and not every effect comes off exactly as planned.   Still, I hear things that I did not hear before, and that makes it a good experience for me.

In the first movement Jansons takes what feels like a slow tempo and does not enforce the tightest possible ensemble, giving the music a bit of an impressionistic mist.  The second movement is nice, although the big apothesis in the massed strings towards the end of the movement didn't overwhelm.  The third movement was good, but could have used a bit more rhythmic snap.  The passacaglia was probably the most successful movement here, and there were parts where I noticed brass parts that had seemingly escaped my attention before.

Whether to get the other discs from this series is a question.  I have a lot of Brahms on the shelf already.

[Obradovic]

  Who would have thought that this of all symphonies could be played like that?

Not even Brahms perhaps!    I think No.1 (the first movement at least) must sound self-assured and virile, after such long inner torment and conflict. In No.2 the pastoral mood of the first movement should be somehow distinctly defined and demarcated from the similar characters of the second and third movements otherwise boredom might creep in.  No.3 is on the same vein I assure you. No.4 is to my ears an intimate but epic and tragic in its articulation and classical balance utterance, Aeschylian I might say and any attempt to play down its qualities works against it. It's a work (not that the other three aren't) treacherously difficult to bring off well. Kleiber and Giulini in Chicago are IMO unbeatable here

[Mandryka]

Not even Brahms perhaps!    I think No.1 (the first movement at least) must sound self-assured and virile, after such long inner torment and conflict. In No.2 the pastoral mood of the first movement should be somehow distinctly defined and demarcated from the similar characters of the second and third movements otherwise boredom might creep in.  No.3 is on the same vein I assure you. No.4 is to my ears an intimate but epic and tragic in its articulation and classical balance utterance, Aeschylian I might say and any attempt to play down its qualities works against it. It's a work (not that the other three aren't) treacherously difficult to bring off well. Kleiber and Giulini in Chicago are IMO unbeatable here

To focus things, can we think of 1/i?


I know that some of the greatest records play it like that. I could easily provide a list, I expect you could too, and I bet Harnoncourt himself could provide such a list. And that sets expectations a certain way. But why shouldn't a more subdued style be appropriate? Do we know much about Brahms intentions and expectations? Is there anything in the music which naturally leads away from small scale dynamics variation and limited emotional content?  Those aren't meant to be rhetorical questions, I really don't know. But I do know that in some moods I enjoy Harnoncourt's 1 very much.

[Parsifal]

To focus things, can we think of 1/i?


I know that some of the greatest records play it like that. I could easily provide a list, I expect you could too, and I bet Harnoncourt himself could provide such a list. And that sets expectations a certain way. But why shouldn't a more subdued style be appropriate? Do we know much about Brahms intentions and expectations? Is there anything in the music which naturally leads away from small scale dynamics variation and limited emotional content?  Those aren't meant to be rhetorical questions, I really don't know. But I do know that in some moods I enjoy Harnoncourt's 1 very much.

I don't think there is anything new or controversial in the idea that Brahms symphonies can be performed in a lyrical manner.   Barbirolli's old cycle with the Vienna Philharmonic did just that, and Fischer's new recording of the first is another example of that approach.    Bernstein slowed them way down in his VPO cycle, but I don't think it worked for him.

[Geo Dude]

To focus things, can we think of 1/i?


I know that some of the greatest records play it like that. I could easily provide a list, I expect you could too, and I bet Harnoncourt himself could provide such a list. And that sets expectations a certain way. But why shouldn't a more subdued style be appropriate? Do we know much about Brahms intentions and expectations? Is there anything in the music which naturally leads away from small scale dynamics variation and limited emotional content?  Those aren't meant to be rhetorical questions, I really don't know. But I do know that in some moods I enjoy Harnoncourt's 1 very much.

This anecdote may not be of as much use to you as I would hope, but for what it is worth Brahms responded to one of his symphonies being performed contrary to a way that he liked to conduct it by introducing himself to the conductor and saying that he never would have envisioned his work being performed that way but liked it.

[Obradovic]

This anecdote may not be of as much use to you as I would hope, but for what it is worth Brahms responded to one of his symphonies being performed contrary to a way that he liked to conduct it by introducing himself to the conductor and saying that he never would have envisioned his work being performed that way but liked it.

All these remind me the famous and funny incident in Parma with Franco Corelli singing Radames. Do you know about it?

[Mandryka]

I don't think there is anything new or controversial in the idea that Brahms symphonies can be performed in a lyrical manner.   Barbirolli's old cycle with the Vienna Philharmonic did just that, and Fischer's new recording of the first is another example of that approach.    Bernstein slowed them way down in his VPO cycle, but I don't think it worked for him.

Thanks for taking the trouble to post this message which I found interesting and helpful. I was unaware of the Barbirolli before but I've had the chance to hear the C minor symphony today and I can see where you're coming from. Same with the Fischer.  It looks like there's  a tradition of Brahms performance which I was unaware of, and which I find quite interesting. I like the Barbirolli/VPO almost as much as I like the Harnoncourt.

So the now question is, how far does this noble, restrained approach go? Was Barbirolli the innovator?  The earliest Brahms performances I know, like Mengelberg and Weingartner and Furtwangler and Max Fiedler, seem to take a very different approach to the music.

There's also the question of how Giulini's later recordings fit into this, the VPO ones.

[Parsifal]

Thanks for taking the trouble to post this message which I found interesting and helpful. I was unaware of the Barbirolli before but I've had the chance to hear the C minor symphony today and I can see where you're coming from. Same with the Fischer.  It looks like there's  a tradition of Brahms performance which I was unaware of, and which I find quite interesting. I like the Barbirolli/VPO almost as much as I like the Harnoncourt.

So the now question is, how far does this noble, restrained approach go? Was Barbirolli the innovator?  The earliest Brahms performances I know, like Mengelberg and Weingartner and Furtwangler and Max Fiedler, seem to take a very different approach to the music.

There's also the question of how Giulini's later recordings fit into this.

According to the notes to the Mackerras/Scottish recordings, Brahms himself preferred a small scale orchestra with a chamber music feel, rather than the heroic approach.   For me, it seems self-evident that Brahms would prefer the more dolce treatment, since every voice sings in his orchestration. 

[DavidRoss]

According to the notes to the Mackerras/Scottish recordings, Brahms himself preferred a small scale orchestra with a chamber music feel, rather than the heroic approach.   For me, it seems self-evident that Brahms would prefer the more dolce treatment, since every voice sings in his orchestration. 

Ditto, +1, and amen.

[Geo Dude]

All these remind me the famous and funny incident in Parma with Franco Corelli singing Radames. Do you know about it?

I'm not familiar with that incident; feel free to enlighten me (us?) about it.

According to the notes to the Mackerras/Scottish recordings, Brahms himself preferred a small scale orchestra with a chamber music feel, rather than the heroic approach.   For me, it seems self-evident that Brahms would prefer the more dolce treatment, since every voice sings in his orchestration. 

The Brahms biography I've read corroborates Mackerras's notes; there was a story in there about a larger orchestra performing one of his symphonies with Brahms serving as guest conductor.  When they started bringing out all of the stringed instruments he told them to send some back because they had more on hand than he wanted.

On a semi-related note, this reminds me of an anecdote of my own:  I saw a guest conductor with the San Antonio symphony that gave us an extended pre-concert lecture about his history, including his history with Brahms.  He commented that as a student he had always found the Brahms performances he heard quite turgid and thought Brahms was simply boring and overrated until they started studying the scores in his composition class at which point he decided that overly romanticized performances were the problem, not Brahms.  He then stated that his philosophy on conducting Brahms is to try to bring out the classical elements because 'the romantic side takes care of itself.'  Unfortunately, I've been unable to remember his name (or find the program) because I would really like to find out if he's done any recordings of Brahms.

[Obradovic]

I'm not familiar with that incident; feel free to enlighten me (us?) about it.

Well, Teatro Reggio di Parma used to have the most wicked and irrascible attending public. They would never spare a vociferous and protracted booing to anyone who would fail, as they believed, to serve the composer's wishes. Deviation from the written score or even the traditional embellishment was out of the question!
Once, Franco Corelli was to appear in Aida and decided to sing his part as it was. Exactly. After he had uttered the last note of 'Celeste Aida' fierce booing ensued as usual. And he asked the crowd:
-'What's the matter with you??"
-Booooooooo
-'Where was I wrong??'
-Boooooooo
-'It was as it should be!'
-Boooooooo
-'It was as Verdi wrote it!'
-(A voice from the booing crowd): 'Verdi ha sbagliato!!' (Verdi was wrong!!) 

Should all Brahms symphonies be approached the same way? Did then Brahms compose four symphonies or one symphony four times? Besides, what to me sounds lyrical to other ears sounds dull. What's for sure is that dense handling of the orchestration pays disservice to the works. In Brahms' orchestration less is more. His palette is not very broad but the georgeous 'brown' colours of his orchestra cry for special attention and care. Slackening the pulse and lowering the temperature is IMO a rather cheap and uneffective way bring off the lyric aspect of the music that should be avoided. Even Celibidache paid special attention to these works putting aside his usual slow tempos. And don't get me wrong, Brahms never heard his symphonies played the same way we hear them today.

PS 1: I summoned a seance to call Brahms' spirit for advice but Abraham Lincoln came instead. When asked he replied: 'You can downplay the virtues of a symphony all the time, you can downplay the virtues of all symphonies some times, but you can never downplay the virtues of all symphonies all the time
PS 2: Harnoncourt, after all, is prone to adopting similar approaches: Listen to his Moldau with the VPO and if this is music for a river... then I don't know what a music for a (swimming) pool should be

[Mandryka]

I've started to enjoy some of Dohdanyi/Philharmonia Brahms, especially the C minor.  How does it compare with the Cleveland recordings? Do I need to get them too?

[eumyang]

This will sound way off base, but my preferred Brahms symphony cycle is actually a one piano four-hand arrangement, as part of Naxos' Brahms Four Hand Piano Music series.  The arrangements are performed by Silke-Thora Matthies and Christian Köhn, and the symphonies are found on volumes 6, 7 and 8.  (And as a bonus, volume 15 contains the two-piano four-hand arrangement of Symphonies 3 & 4.)  I'm pretty sure that Brahms did not make all of the arrangements himself.

I'm not sure why I prefer listening to the one piano, four hand arrangements over the originals.  I also prefer the one piano, four hand versions of Brahms' Hungarian Dances and Dvorak's Slavonic Dances.  But in these cases, IIRC the orchestral versions are the arrangements and the four-hand versions are the originals.  Weird, I know.

[Octave]

This will sound way off base, but my preferred Brahms symphony cycle is actually a one piano four-hand arrangement, as part of Naxos' Brahms Four Hand Piano Music series.  The arrangements are performed by Silke-Thora Matthies and Christian Köhn, and the symphonies are found on volumes 6, 7 and 8.  (And as a bonus, volume 15 contains the two-piano four-hand arrangement of Symphonies 3 & 4.)  I'm pretty sure that Brahms did not make all of the arrangements himself.

I'm not sure why I prefer listening to the one piano, four hand arrangements over the originals.  I also prefer the one piano, four hand versions of Brahms' Hungarian Dances and Dvorak's Slavonic Dances.  But in these cases, IIRC the orchestral versions are the arrangements and the four-hand versions are the originals.  Weird, I know.

Good to know about these.  It's actually a very HIP way to hear the symphonies, regardless of the piano used, isn't it?  One the side of reception history rather than public (orchestral) performance.  The HIP antecedent to record-collecting.  I guess the arrangements would have to be old enough to have been disseminated with Brahms' or his immediate estate's approval.
Also, maybe related, I've mentioned recently how much I like Brahms' own four-hands "London Version" of the REQUIEM; I've only heard one recording (by Accentus et al), but that makes me wonder if the I'd really like the symphonies this way.

Can you tell at a glance who did the symphony arrangements, and/or how old they are? 

[knight66]

This will sound way off base, but my preferred Brahms symphony cycle is actually a one piano four-hand arrangement, as part of Naxos' Brahms Four Hand Piano Music series.  The arrangements are performed by Silke-Thora Matthies and Christian Köhn, and the symphonies are found on volumes 6, 7 and 8.  (And as a bonus, volume 15 contains the two-piano four-hand arrangement of Symphonies 3 & 4.)  I'm pretty sure that Brahms did not make all of the arrangements himself.

I'm not sure why I prefer listening to the one piano, four hand arrangements over the originals.  I also prefer the one piano, four hand versions of Brahms' Hungarian Dances and Dvorak's Slavonic Dances.  But in these cases, IIRC the orchestral versions are the arrangements and the four-hand versions are the originals.  Weird, I know.

I can relate to this. I have a piano transcription of Beethoven 9th symphony and i listen to that more often than to the original. I do have the Naxos version for piano of the Brahms Requiem and that makes the music sound dull.

Mike

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

I just had my first listen to Haitink's Brahms 2 with the Conc'bouw, from the 70s cycle. A used LP that I paid all of $1 for.

Damn, this is good, in every way (playing, interpretation, sound). Is the rest of Haitink's cycle as excellent as this?

Best $1 purchase ever!

[Que]

I just had my first listen to Haitink's Brahms 2 with the Conc'bouw, from the 70s cycle. A used LP that I paid all of $1 for.

Damn, this is good, in every way (playing, interpretation, sound). Is the rest of Haitink's cycle as excellent as this?

Best $1 purchase ever!

Yes, definitely.  It's on my short list.

Q