Bach vs. Beethoven!

[Daidalos]

As much as I tried, I could not bring myself to vote. Sorry.

[Larry Rinkel]

I guess Larry voted for Bach and D Minor voted for Beethoven.

No, Beethoven voted for D Minor and Larry voted for Elgar.

[karlhenning]

As much as I tried, I could not bring myself to vote. Sorry.

For my part, Daidalos, you needn't apologize 

[dtwilbanks]

As much as I tried, I could not bring myself to vote. Sorry.

Maybe you could select the last of the two composers you listened to, or whichever one has the most CDs in your collection, or which you listen to more often.

Remember: it's only a poll.

[Scriptavolant]

I think James was not completely wrong when he was talking about the over-assertion of Self thing. Neither he was wrong not finding this feature in Bach.

[marvinbrown]

As much as I tried, I could not bring myself to vote. Sorry.

 Me too.  An impossible question to answer.  

 marvin
 

[Larry Rinkel]

I think James was not completely wrong when he was talking about the over-assertion of Self thing. Neither he was wrong not finding this feature in Bach.

He was not completely right either, and is relying on a very partial and clichéd notion of Beethoven's achievement.

[Haffner]

I think James was not completely wrong when he was talking about the over-assertion of Self thing. Neither he was wrong not finding this feature in Bach.

Please be more specific about precisely where Beethoven is "overly self assertive" as opposed to Bach (musically), and also why this "overt self-assertiveness" turns you off. I'm honestly just very very curious.

[dtwilbanks]

What if you could not have a Wagner av, Marvin;  and there were only two choices for your av: Bach or Beethoven.

Which would you choose?

Oh, stop. 

[karlhenning]

I withdraw the question, your honor 

[Scriptavolant]

He was not completely right either, and is relying on a very partial and clichéd notion of Beethoven's achievement.

I agree partially, since I think that acknowledging Beethoven's self-assertion doesn't imply a depreciation of his music or his genius. I mean: I'm not considering the term "self-assertion" as a negative feature.
But I consider it to be a fact that Bach pureness and rigour, his supreme impersonality (common to most of the pre-romantic music) was lost in XIXth Century, starting with Beethoven.
That consideration, which is widely accepted among scholars, obviously reflects my own personal taste and inclinations.

[karlhenning]

I agree partially, since I think that acknowledging Beethoven's self-assertion doesn't imply a depreciation of his music or his genius. I mean: I'm not considering the term "self-assertion" as a negative feature.
But I consider it to be a fact that Bach pureness and rigour, his supreme impersonality (common to most of the pre-romantic music) was lost in XIXth Century, starting with Beethoven.

If Bach's music were "supremely impersonal," his music would just sound like other composers of his era.

Every artist's work is an expression of himself.  So to claim that this great artist's work is more "self-assertion" than that other's, is front-loaded with other assumptions.

[Scriptavolant]

If Bach's music were "supremely impersonal," his music would just sound like other composers of his era.

Every artist's work is an expression of himself.  So to claim that this great artist's work is more "self-assertion" than that other's, is front-loaded with other assumptions.

As usual you didn't get it.

[karlhenning]

As usual you didn't get it.

Wow; this overwhelming erudition so entirely convinces me.

[Scriptavolant]

Wow; this overwhelming erudition so entirely convinces me.

You didn't get it once again.
Karl, you're PhD, you really cannot tell any difference between Romantic and Baroque expressiveness? You really cannot grasp the meaning of "supreme impersonality"? You think music from very different periods has always the same flat ammount of sentimental contents?
These are themes Thomas Eliot developed profoundly for example (in poetry). Not merely my opinion.

[Kullervo]

I agree partially, since I think that acknowledging Beethoven's self-assertion doesn't imply a depreciation of his music or his genius. I mean: I'm not considering the term "self-assertion" as a negative feature.
But I consider it to be a fact that Bach pureness and rigour, his supreme impersonality (common to most of the pre-romantic music) was lost in XIXth Century, starting with Beethoven.
That consideration, which is widely accepted among scholars, obviously reflects my own personal taste and inclinations.

Could it be read that Beethoven's "personal struggle" in his music is actually part of a greater human struggle? That is how I see it.

[Ten thumbs]

I chose Beethoven only because I prefer him as an adventuror against Bach who was more of a consolidator.

[Mark]

As the original question is one of personal favourites, I'm obliged to vote for Ludwig.

[Scriptavolant]

Could it be read that Beethoven's "personal struggle" in his music is actually part of a greater human struggle? That is how I see it.

I see it this way too, but I think that his struggle becomes collective and universal only in works such as the symphonies. For what concerns his chamber music - for example - the struggle is much more similar to a personal, solitary confession.

[Kullervo]

I see it this way too, but I think that his struggle becomes collective and universal only in works such as the symphonies. For what concerns his chamber music - for example - the struggle is much more similar to a personal, solitary confession.

Why? Is it because of the smaller instrumental forces? I don't agree.