Innovative Composer Game (Selection Thread)

[San Antone]

I'm curious what people consider to be innovative. There are many composers whose music I enjoy, but I don't consider them innovative, merely great exponents of others' innovations.

I chose John Cage, which should be self-explanatory; my other choice was Debussy who was also innovative in a variety of ways, imo.  I figure the voting will bear out whether people agree with our choices or not.

[Sammy]

Selected (27):
Bach (CPE)
Bach (JS)
Bartok
Beethoven
Berlioz
Biber
Cage
Chopin
Debussy
Gesualdo
Hauer
Haydn (J.)
Ligeti
Liszt
Martinu
Monteverdi
Partch
Schnittke
Schoenberg
Sibelius
Stockhausen
Stravinsky
Sweelinck
Vivaldi
Wagner
Webern
Wyschnegradsky

[Sammy]

The two Bach entries leave me curious.  Could someone shed some light on their innovative achievements?

[Gurn Blanston]

For my two choices:

Berlioz, as one of the earliest exponents of the full Romantic style, was an innovator in many respects.  He invented a new kind of orchestration, created new musical forms nearly out of whole cloth, and his harmonic audacity presaged Wagner's later innovations in that regard.

Monteverdi created a new language based on harmony in contrast to the older modal system, used his new language to great dramatic effect, and through it crafted the first operatic masterpieces.

I chose John Cage, which should be self-explanatory; my other choice was Debussy who was also innovative in a variety of ways, imo.  I figure the voting will bear out whether people agree with our choices or not.

For me, you have Wyschnegradsky, who took Scriabin's late tendencies and married them to quarter-tone scales (along with other divisions).  Harry Partch invented microtonal scales and created his own instruments to produce the notes in a 43-tone scale!

Those are all reasonable rationales, Berlioz would have been on my list too.

I chose Vivaldi because he was indisputably credited by his peers and immediate descendants as being the inventor of the solo concerto, which form is still used today.

In the realm of tonal music, Haydn virtually created sonata forms and also showed how to exploit tonal aspects of music far beyond anything heard before. As an example directly related to Berlioz, the col legno battuto indication he used in Symphonie Fantastique in 1830 was anticipated by Haydn by a good 55 years when he used it in Symphony #67 in 1775. One example in hundreds.

Curious what others' ideas are.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Boulez
Solage

[Sammy]

Selected (29):
Bach (CPE)
Bach (JS)
Bartok
Beethoven
Berlioz
Biber
Boulez
Cage
Chopin
Debussy
Gesualdo
Hauer
Haydn (J.)
Ligeti
Liszt
Martinu
Monteverdi
Partch
Schnittke
Schoenberg
Sibelius
Solage
Stockhausen
Stravinsky
Sweelinck
Vivaldi
Wagner
Webern
Wyschnegradsky

[mc ukrneal]

Ives (as innovative as anyone on the list and biggest omission that I can see)

[Ken B]

Caccini
Léonin

[Ken B]

For my two choices:

Berlioz, as one of the earliest exponents of the full Romantic style, was an innovator in many respects.  He invented a new kind of orchestration, created new musical forms nearly out of whole cloth, and his harmonic audacity presaged Wagner's later innovations in that regard.

Monteverdi created a new language based on harmony in contrast to the older modal system, used his new language to great dramatic effect, and through it crafted the first operatic masterpieces.

I would agree about Monteverdi except that it was Caccini more than he who started the new music, and also the new notation.

[Mahlerian]

I would agree about Monteverdi except that it was Caccini more than he who started the new music, and also the new notation.

Your points are well-taken, but if you wish to posit Caccini as an innovator, the best thing would be to put his name forward as a nomination.

As I see you did.

[amw]

Guillaume de Machaut
John Dunstaple

[GioCar]

Dufay
Varèse

[Sammy]

Selected (36):
Bach (CPE)
Bach (JS)
Bartok
Beethoven
Berlioz
Biber
Boulez
Caccini
Cage
Chopin
Debussy
Dufay
Dunstable
Gesualdo
Hauer
Haydn (J.)
Ives
Léonin
Ligeti
Liszt
Machaut
Martinu
Monteverdi
Partch
Schnittke
Schoenberg
Sibelius
Solage
Stockhausen
Stravinsky
Sweelinck
Varèse
Vivaldi
Wagner
Webern
Wyschnegradsky

[amw]

The two Bach entries leave me curious.  Could someone shed some light on their innovative achievements?

CPE Bach is reasonable as basically the inventor of the modern sonata, of empfindsamkeit (sp), and the person most instrumental in the transition from style rococo via style galante to the fully formed "classical style", and was cited by Haydn and Mozart (among others) as an influence. I don't really understand the presence of JS Bach on the list though. Or Sibelius.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Verdi (innovative in how he developed more traditional forms to suit the drama of the music)
Brahms (innovative in his harmonic language and scope, thematic development, sheer irregularity of modulatory and developmental passages within traditional large forms just as much as in shorter piano music and songs)

[Mirror Image]

Debussy
Stravinsky

I don't think I need to explain the innovations of these composers as they speak for themselves.

[San Antone]

Debussy
Stravinsky

I don't think I need to explain the innovations of these composers as they speak for themselves.

Maybe not, but you need to explain why you are nominating composers already on the list.   

[Mirror Image]

Maybe not, but you need to explain why you are nominating composers already on the list.   

Ah, it might help if I actually read the rules for the thread.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Technically, JS Bach and Brahms were famous/infamous for not being innovators. What they both did was perfecting what they already had.

I thought Brahms' innovations were important in laying the groundwork for the Second Viennese School. I'm yet to come across sound evidence that Brahms was more conservative in the areas I've described.

I'm not fully aware of Bach's innovations, but I find that his harmonies are often richer and more chromatic than that of his contemporaries and his approach to form seems to highlight thematic development through counterpoint more than in the music of others, but also, I think some of those traits were more common in earlier music anyway.

[Cato]

I thought Brahms' innovations were important in laying the groundwork for the Second Viennese School. I'm yet to come across sound evidence that Brahms was more conservative in the areas I've described.

I'm not fully aware of Bach's innovations, but I find that his harmonies are often richer and more chromatic than that of his contemporaries and his approach to form seems to highlight thematic development through counterpoint more than in the music of others, but also, I think some of those traits were more common in earlier music anyway.

A book called Bruckner, Mahler, Schoenberg by Schoenberg's student Dika Newlin proposed a line to the Second Viennese School indicated in the book's title.  Given that Schoenberg wrote an essay called Brahms, The Progressive, I do not see how Brahms can be excluded as at least part of the family tree.

Scroll down to page 52:

https://monoskop.org/images/8/84/Schoenberg_Arnold_Style_and_Idea.pdf