Exercise in Restraint: What Religion Do You Believe In?

[Haffner]

I agree.  Wise as always my friend.

That is, the good and wise George of GMG. Feast day is pending (friendly smiling added, no emoticon needed).

[Hector]

"Religion is the opium of the people."

Oh, alright then...football, but I have yet to return to the new cathedral that is Wembley.

I have, therefore lapsed.

I will be forgiven in Heaven, which in real terms is England winning the World Cup.

[val]

Haffner
What, if any, organized religion do you believe in?

None. I am an atheist but don't profess atheism as a religion, this to quote Chesterton.

[Haffner]

"Religion is the opium of the people."

Oh, alright then...football, but I have yet to return to the new cathedral that is Wembley.

I have, therefore lapsed.

I will be forgiven in Heaven, which in real terms is England winning the World Cup.

32 year old Muhammad Ali knocking out George Foreman (in his prime).

[karlhenning]

Simplicity in these things is best.

Simplicity is one mode, and in many instances, it is best.

One example perhaps of simplicity not being best in matters of faith:  I am given the impression that suicide bombers in the Middle East see things as breathtakingly simple.

It sure seems strange to have a middle man between us and our higher power, no?

Not to me.  To give one illustration:  when I wanted to learn to play the clarinet, I did not dismiss the idea of a teacher as an unnecessary "middle man."  As I see the question of religion, it is something which inhabits not philosophy only, but community in a very important way.  My neighbors are fellow seekers for the light, who in very practical ways can help me see things;  I would find it a bit strange to consider them unnecessary "middle men."

[Haffner]

Simplicity is one mode, and in many instances, it is best.

One example perhaps of simplicity not being best in matters of faith:  I am given the impression that suicide bombers in the Middle East see things as breathtakingly simple.

Not to me.  To give one illustration:  when I wanted to learn to play the clarinet, I did not dismiss the idea of a teacher as an unnecessary "middle man."  As I see the question of religion, it is something which inhabits not philosophy only, but community in a very important way.  My neighbors are fellow seekers for the light, who in very practical ways can help me see things;  I would find it a bit strange to consider them unnecessary "middle men."

A beautiful thing about the Islamic religion is that pretty much everybody is going to Paradise (they have to be Muslims of course, but that doesn't change the picture for me).

I also find Karl's assertion in regard to "middle men/women" to be easy to agree with, but that's coming from a person of like Faith, so I'm betting my opinion is thusly disqualified in most people's eyes...perhaps rightly so.

Just yesterday my own parish priest helped me immensely, answering some involved questions I had in regard to my beliefs. It's terrific, for me at least, to have such a man or woman available to help me. I have been through the "Dark Night of the Soul", more than once, and most of the time it's a member of the clergy whom has helped most.

However, I learn alot from other sources as well, including the often wonderful people here on this forum.

[M forever]

I will be forgiven in Heaven, which in real terms is England winning the World Cup.

Now *that* is more unlikely than any of the miracles described in any religious texts I have ever seen. Walking on water? Why not. Rasing someone from the dead? Sure, you just have to know how. England winning the World Cup? Come on!

[Haffner]

Now *that* is more unlikely than any of the miracles described in any religious texts I have ever seen. Walking on water? Why not. Rasing someone from the dead? Sure, you just have to know how. England winning the World Cup? Come on!

(laughing like a loon)

"Here Blue Meanie, take your nahsty medicine!"

[greg]

I still have faith in Scriabin and his final mystery.

LOL!!!!!!!!
duh, me too! One day the apocalypse will come from India and a giant image of Scriabin will appear before all the peoples of the earth and we will all drown in synesthesiatic ecstasy!

[M forever]

Not to me.  To give one illustration:  when I wanted to learn to play the clarinet, I did not dismiss the idea of a teacher as an unnecessary "middle man."  As I see the question of religion, it is something which inhabits not philosophy only, but community in a very important way.  My neighbors are fellow seekers for the light, who in very practical ways can help me see things;  I would find it a bit strange to consider them unnecessary "middle men."

They aren't. They are standing next to you, not between you and whatever may be the object of your spiritual desires. As such, they aren't "middle men".

The comparison with the clarinet teacher doesn't really make sense either in this context. Playing the clarinet is very much learning an entirely man made cultural technique. In fact, it is learning just consciously chosen aspects of that technique since different schools of clarinet playing are necessarily reductions of the overall possibilities of the instrument. By learning these defined techniques and esthetics, you are indeed becoming a member of a "community", namely the group of players whose style you adopt. Your comparison seems to suggest that that is the same for you with religious aspects. I can't imagine that that is what you wanted to say because it would confirm basically all negative clichés people like me have about organized religion.

[greg]

No religion. Atheist.

And atheism is no more a religion than not playing chess is a sport.

depends on how you define "religion", or course. If you want to be specific, then it isn't.
I looked in my dictionary, it says "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually having a moral code for the conduct of human affairs."

hard to say, really.... the "esp." part is everything in this definition, one dictionary can have it in, which would mean atheism is possibly a religion, but another dictionary can decide to leave the "esp." part out, which would mean it isn't a religion. Either way, it's a belief, and every single person in the world has a belief unless they've never even thought of the question or just choose to believe nothing...

Saulism.

...
it's Sa*lism, don't forget next time 

[karlhenning]

They aren't. They are standing next to you, not between you and whatever may be the object of your spiritual desires. As such, they aren't "middle men".

In which case, for me to answer properly, I should need to know just the nature of the "middle men" which George finds implausible.  As it is, the figurative nature of the discussion is floundering on a variety of indefinitions, I think.

[Haffner]

Sartre anyone (or no one?) 

[karlhenning]

I picked that up years ago, but couldn't get through it, Andy :-)

[greg]

As it is, the figurative nature of the discussion is floundering on a variety of indefinitions, I think.

as is most of the discussion in the diner lol

[karlhenning]

Well, we've seen more than a few musical discussions chase their indefinite tails, too.  Pass the vibrational fields, please.

[Florestan]

I'm an Orthodox Christian.

[Haffner]

I picked that up years ago, but couldn't get through it, Andy :-)

You really aren't missing much that you couldn't pick up from much better sources (i.e. pretty much any of the teachings from each of the world's religions as well as Nietzsche, Freud, and Hegel). I would reccomend the writings of Saint John of the Cross, St. Ignatius, or the Bhagavad-Gita before Being and Nothingness.

Being and Nothingness could be said to be a fantastically verbose, avowedly atheistic bible of Marxist Buddhism-lite.

Not necessarily by me.

[Haffner]

Well, we've seen more than a few musical discussions chase their indefinite tails, too.  Pass the vibrational fields, please.

Maybe what we need is a damn good, Vibra-Slap WHACKING!



Wheeeeeeee!



Or not (laughing hyena-ically)

[Haffner]

Once again (I'm pretty sure), another of George of GMG's signatures :

Martin Luther King: "Hate cannot defeat hate. Only Love can defeat Hate"