Interactive Solo Keyboard Works Game (Voting Round)

[ritter]

Thank you, Sammy, for organizing the game. It was great fun. 

Cheers,

[Sammy]

Thank you, Sammy, for organizing the game. It was great fun. 

Cheers,

Glad you enjoyed it.  Aside from the top three slots, it was a highly competitive game.

[Florestan]

Yes.  The top 10 is as follows:

1.  Debussy - Etudes - 100
2.  Bach - Goldberg Variations - 86
3.  Bach - Well-Tempered Clavier, Bk. 2 - 82
4.  Liszt - Piano Sonata in B minor - 66
5.  Beethoven - Piano Sonata no. 30, op. 109 - 65
5.  Schubert - Piano Sonata, D 960 - 65
5.  Schumann - Kinderszenen - 65
8.  Schoenberg - Drei Klavierstücke op. 11 - 64
9.  Ravel - Le tombeau de Couperin - 62
10. Ives - Piano Sonata "Concord" - 60

Cutting out the last three meant leaving out two composers that were not of Austro-German birth, so I question Florestan's commitment to fighting the ideology of Austro-German hegemony.

Seven out of ten positions are German / Austrian; in the top five we have one Frenchman and six German / Austrian. If this is not hegemony, then the word has lost any meaning. And besides, did not Schoenberg himself claim that he discovered a method that would ensure German musical hegemony for another hundred years? (fortunately, he was as wrong as it gets.)

[Mahlerian]

Seven out of ten positions are German / Austrian; in the top five we have one Frenchman and six German / Austrian. If this is not hegemony, then the word has lost any meaning.

You count Liszt as Austrian?  Would you count Bartok and Janacek as Austrian too?

Anyway, my point was that you chopped off the list before the addition of two others who were by any standard outside of that culture, which makes the list even more Austro-German in orientation than it would have been if you had just given the whole thing.

And besides, did not Schoenberg himself claim that he discovered a method that would ensure German musical hegemony for another hundred years? (fortunately, he was as wrong as it gets.)

Yeah, it was a kind of dumb thing to say, and I don't find Schoenberg's cultural chauvinism any more attractive than Mozart's, Debussy's, or Stravinsky's, but it can't be denied that Schoenberg has continued to influence just about every important composer since, whether their reaction was positive or negative.

[Florestan]

You count Liszt as Austrian?

Liszt is a special case. He was of German stock, his native language was German, as an adult his language of choice was French, he considered himself a Hungarian although he never got to speak Hungarian profficiently, he was widely recognized as the head of the Neudeutsche Schule. Some conundrum.

Would you count Bartok and Janacek as Austrian too?

Bartok is clearly Hungarian (incidentally, born in a small town in present-day Romania), Janacek is clearly Czech.

Yeah, it was a kind of dumb thing to say, and I don't find Schoenberg's cultural chauvinism any more attractive than Mozart's, Debussy's, or Stravinsky's,

I am not aware of any cultural chauvinism of Mozart. What do you mean by that?

[Mahlerian]

Liszt is a special case. He was of German stock, his native language was German, as an adult his language of choice was French, he considered himself a Hungarian although he never got to speak Hungarian profficiently, he was widely recognized as the head of the Neudeutsche Schule. Some conundrum.

He was born in the Hungarian part of Austro-Hungary, and even if he was German in extraction and language, that he considered himself Hungarian should be taken into consideration, nicht wahr?

Also, the so-called Neudeutsch school had Berlioz among its primary forbears.

Bartok is clearly Hungarian (incidentally, born in a small town in present-day Romania), Janacek is clearly Czech.

Both were born in the Austro-Hungarian empire.  Janacek and Mahler were born only a few miles apart, I believe.

I am not aware of any cultural chauvinism of Mozart. What do you mean by that?

He railed against the French and Italians as simplistic and charlatans at various times.  You haven't heard of this?

[Florestan]

He was born in the Hungarian part of Austro-Hungary

At the time of Liszt's birth (1811) the Austro-Hungarian Empire (founded 1867) did not exist. Ditto for Janacek, born in 1854.

He railed against the French and Italians as simplistic and charlatans at various times. 

How did he do it? Verbally? In his letters?

[Mahlerian]

At the time of Liszt's birth (1811) the Austro-Hungarian Empire (founded 1867) did not exist. Ditto for Janacek, born in 1854.

Okay, they were both born in the Austrian Empire, in the parts that would later be part of other countries.  The point is that both Bartok and Janacek were born and raised within Austro-Germany.

(Well, Mahler's and Janacek's birthplaces were a bit further apart than I remembered, a few hundred kilometers)

How did he do it? Verbally? In his letters?

In letters, as I recall.  I think one line went "Clementi is a charlatan, as all Italians are."

In regards to the French: "I can vouch for the few intelligent French people who may be there; as for the stupid ones – I see no great harm if they don't like it. But I hope that even these idiots will find something in it to like"

[Baron Scarpia]

In letters, as I recall.  I think one line went "Clementi is a charlatan, as all Italians are."

Mozart worked and studied in Italy, had a long term relationship with his Italian librettist. He may have been annoyed at the popularity of Italian music and musicians in his native land, but I think you are going to have to produce more than some off hand remarks about 'damn foreigners' in a private letter to label him a chauvinist.

[Mahlerian]

Mozart worked and studied in Italy, had a long term relationship with his Italian librettist. He may have been annoyed at the popularity of Italian music and musicians in his native land, but I think you are going to have to produce more than some off hand remarks about 'damn foreigners' in a private letter to label him a chauvinist.

And one would have to do the same about Schoenberg in order to back up the idea that he was a chauvinist.  Any such material to support calling him such would be limited to a few outbursts in letters as well.  The line cited by Florestan was itself from a private letter and does not denigrate any nationality whatsoever (though certainly such things can be found in his letters from WWI).

I suppose I should have said "Schoenberg's outbursts of chauvinism."  We should remember that he had students who were Spanish, Greek, and American in addition to those who were German or Austrian.

[Baron Scarpia]

And one would have to do the same about Schoenberg in order to back up the idea that he was a chauvinist.  Any such material to support calling him such would be limited to a few outbursts in letters as well.  The line cited by Florestan was itself from a private letter and does not denigrate any nationality whatsoever (though certainly such things can be found in his letters from WWI).

I suppose I should have said "Schoenberg's outbursts of chauvinism."  We should remember that he had students who were Spanish, Greek, and American in addition to those who were German or Austrian.

I don't think of Schoenberg as a Chauvinist either, really. It is unrealistic to expect artists to give reasonable assessments of their contemporaries. If they were reasonable, they wouldn't create memorable art, they would read the newspaper. Debussy's overwhelming desire to create an alternative to the German way of producing music would not come from a reasonable man.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Seven out of ten positions are German / Austrian; in the top five we have one Frenchman and six German / Austrian. If this is not hegemony, then the word has lost any meaning. And besides, did not Schoenberg himself claim that he discovered a method that would ensure German musical hegemony for another hundred years? (fortunately, he was as wrong as it gets.)

I do not think the Nazi regime, which pretty much abolished any hopes that 12 tone music would become an inherently German thing, was a very fortunate period in history, Florestan!!! However, the composers who fled to other countries and the composers who picked up and further developed serialism did mean that there was a rapid worldwide spread of the technique. This resulted in some fantastic music from composers like Boulez, Babbitt, Stravinsky, Smith-Brindle, Dallapiccola, Chávez.......and then those who reacted against the ideas also created some wonderful music. In that sense, I agree with you that 'German musical hegemony' is pretty much just one big fat boring idea that overshadows music from other countries and the music of the 20th Century is the best proof we have.


But to be honest, Germany seems to have the best conditions for contemporary music (and a lot of other classical music) to thrive, so I would rather go there to study composition than anywhere else.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

I'm very satisfied with the outcomes.  I kept pushing the Bach entries, and they came in 2nd and 3rd.  Although I didn't give points to Kinderszenen, it was my 3rd favorite work from the list.  As for the Debussy Etudes, they are wonderful pieces that I favor over any other Debussy compositions. 

Thanks for playing the game and choosing wisely.  Once the "Innovation" game is over, I'll start another contest likely of string quartets.  If you have other preferences, I'd love to hear and consider them.

how about a game for works composed after 1945? I can't think of any obvious winners, but nominations for that would be extremely interesting considering the variety of musical preferences on GMG, particularly with symphonic repertoire. And I guess even electroacoustic repertoire! I look forward to the string quartet game as it is one of my favourite mediums for music. I'll be nominationing lots of Ferneyhough, Ligeti, Schoenberg, Lachenmann, Bartók and Schumann most prominently!

[Sammy]

how about a game for works composed after 1945? I can't think of any obvious winners, but nominations for that would be extremely interesting considering the variety of musical preferences on GMG, particularly with symphonic repertoire. And I guess even electroacoustic repertoire! I look forward to the string quartet game as it is one of my favourite mediums for music. I'll be nominations Ferneyhough, Ligeti, Schoenberg, Lachenmann, Bartók and Schumann most prominently!

All suggestions will be considered.  I suppose that sentence doesn't sound enthusiastic, but I've started many games where my enthusiasm was initially low.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

All suggestions will be considered.  I suppose that sentence doesn't sound enthusiastic, but I've started many games where my enthusiasm was initially low.

Turnouts of participants might be higher than expected. Personally, I barely listen to solo piano/keyboard music because I have less interest in solo music than chamber music, electroacoustic music and opera (orchestral and choral music being somewhere in the middle), but this game was highly enjoyable and there were more than a few pieces I particularly enjoy that ended up making it into the top 10.

[André]

What about a death-oriented game ? All the requiems and stabat maters of course, but also works with the words death, fallen, in memoriam, funebre, macabre, tombeau (grave), etc ?

I'm dead serious  .

[San Antone]

All suggestions will be considered.  I suppose that sentence doesn't sound enthusiastic, but I've started many games where my enthusiasm was initially low.

I second your idea of a string quartet game, many possibilities.

[Cato]

But to be honest, Germany seems to have the best conditions for contemporary music (and a lot of other classical music) to thrive, so I would rather go there to study composition than anywhere else.

For composing in Germany try Kürten (Post Office Code 51515).   0:)  They have been looking for a replacement composer for a few years!  You must promise, however, to use the basset horn in every composition.