The String Quartet Game (Round Two)

[Sammy]

After waking up and reading the bickering posts, I have four things to say.

1.  Advancing to the final round:

Dvořák - String Quartet no. 13 in G major, op. 106
Haydn - String Quartet in G major, op. 77/1 "Lobkowitz"
Schubert - String Quartet no. 12 in C minor, D 703 "Quartettsatz"

2.  Game outcomes reflect the preferences of the GMG members who participated in the voting; it's that simple.  Arguing over the merits of particular works won't change anything.  Further, preference rules the day, not perceived merit.

3.  Ligeti's Quartet missed out on going to the final round by the smallest of margins, and I don't consider it a foregone conclusion that no modernist works will advance to the finale.  Just on my own, I could insure modernist works will advance and I'm only one voter.

4.  Round Three will begin later today - stay cool.

[Crudblud]

And probably not an accurate assessment.  Some voters appear to be biased against older works and towards more contemporary composers.  Ageism does not make for a convincing argument, imo.

For me it's more that I don't vote for the "old masters" because I know everyone else will. They're secure. I'm convinced we will see a Haydn quartet advance in each of these primary rounds, and Beethoven, Mozart, Schubert etc. are pretty much guaranteed to go through with multiple entries also. Whether I think it's wonderful music or not (and by and large I do) I'd rather go to bat for stuff I love that also needs help.

[San Antone]

For me it's more that I don't vote for the "old masters" because I know everyone else will. They're secure. I'm convinced we will see a Haydn quartet advance in each of these primary rounds, and Beethoven, Mozart, Schubert etc. are pretty much guaranteed to go through with multiple entries also. Whether I think it's wonderful music or not (and by and large I do) I'd rather go to bat for stuff I love that also needs help.

I didn't vote for them either, choosing to support Arensky, Weinberg and Shostakovich - but they did worse than Ligeti.

[Mahlerian]

I didn't vote for them either, choosing to support Arensky, Weinberg and Shostakovich - but they did worse than Ligeti.

I'd say they did equally well in terms of advancing to the next round.

[Baron Scarpia]

Having only 3 of 20 advances means only strong consensus candidates will make it. Every game has its rules, which shape the outcome. Maybe a future game for quartets written after 1900 will allow us to express our preference for more modern works.

[Mahlerian]

Having only 3 of 20 advances means only strong consensus candidates will make it. Every game has its rules, which shape the outcome. Maybe a future game for quartets written after 1900 will allow us to express our preference for more modern works.

There was a strong consensus among a group of voters that Ligeti's Second Quartet was worthy of inclusion.  The problem is not that it didn't get sufficient support, but that there was an equal push on the other side to ensure it didn't get in at all.  Forcing post-1900 works into a different group is not a good solution.  I want to see a list that captures the full vitality of the repertoire, and this list is shaping up to be anything but that.

I love the works of Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven, I nominated pieces by all three, and I think that a string quartet list without them is as poor as one without Ligeti or Schoenberg or Webern.

[San Antone]

There was a strong consensus among a group of voters that Ligeti's Second Quartet was worthy of inclusion.  The problem is not that it didn't get sufficient support, but that there was an equal push on the other side to ensure it didn't get in at all.

You must be kidding.   People voted for the works they wished to support.  Just as you spread your votes around to certain works you neglected others.  Get over it.  And Ligeti got more than four times as many votes as Weinberg.

[Baron Scarpia]

I don't think there was an "other side" trying in "ensure" Ligeti didn't get in. There were people who loved Haydn. I'm starting to dispair of any Mozart' getting in!

[San Antone]

You must be kidding.   People voted for the works they wished to support.  Just as you spread your votes around to certain works you neglected others.  Get over it.  And Ligeti got more than four times as many votes as Weinberg.

Just for the record here's the final board:

Arensky - String Quartet no. 2 in A minor, op. 35 - 61
Bax - String Quartet no. 1 in G major - 10
Beethoven - String Quartet no. 16 in F major, op. 135 - 57
Crumb - Black Angels - 39
Dvořák - String Quartet no. 13 in G major, op. 106 - 102 (+3)
Ferneyhough - String Quartet no. 6 - 30

Haydn - String Quartet in G major, op. 77/1 "Lobkowitz" - 100 (+2)
Janácek - String Quartet no. 2 "Intimate letters" - 65
Ligeti - String Quartet no. 2 - 95
Schubert - String Quartet no. 12 in C minor, D 703 "Quartettsatz" -  103 (+5)
Shostakovich - String Quartet no. 12 in D flat major, op. 133 - 19
Takemitsu - Landscape for String Quartet - 15
Weinberg - String Quartet no. 11, op. 89 - 15

Ligeti got 95 votes - 6X Weinberg and Takemitsu; nearly 5X Shostakovich  - how can you complain that Ligeti was shunned when he got the fourth highest total? 

[Mahlerian]

I don't think there was an "other side" trying in "ensure" Ligeti didn't get in. There were people who loved Haydn. I'm starting to dispair of any Mozart' getting in!

You and San Antone suddenly shifted your voting patterns at the last second to ensure its defeat.

Neither of you had voted for Schubert, Dvorak, or Haydn until the last votes when you pushed them above Ligeti.

[Florestan]

You and San Antone suddenly shifted your voting patterns at the last second to ensure its defeat.

Neither of you had voted for Schubert, Dvorak, or Haydn until the last votes when you pushed them above Ligeti.

I hate to say it but you sound like a conspiracy theorist.

[Mahlerian]

I hate to say it but you sound like a conspiracy theorist.

Here are the votes until today:

Baron Scarpia
Beethoven +10
Janacek +15
Mozart +5

San Antone
Arensky +13
Myaskovsky +7
Shostakovich +12
Weinberg +8

Mahlerian
Beethoven +4
Crumb +2
Janacek +15
Ligeti +10
Takemitsu +9


Then, today, Baron Scarpia and San Antone decide to vote for works they have not thus far supported, pushing them above Ligeti and Ligeti out of the game.

[San Antone]

You and San Antone suddenly shifted your voting patterns at the last second to ensure its defeat.

Neither of you had voted for Schubert, Dvorak, or Haydn until the last votes when you pushed them above Ligeti.

Yes; I voted for composers I actually listen to.  I don't listen to Ligeti - so shoot me. 

[Crudblud]

I didn't vote for them either, choosing to support Arensky, Weinberg and Shostakovich - but they did worse than Ligeti.

Shostakovich not doing so well is pretty surprising, I always thought him among the most popular 20th century composers, but maybe the 12th just isn't a very popular quartet, I don't know—since the list was made up of single vote nominations in the first place it's hard to tell what outside of the tried and true is going to get the most support, though we've already seen that nominations don't always equate to votes, I've even had to neglect composers I nominated because I felt others were more deserving of votes. Ligeti is very popular among 20th century composers of a "progressive" stripe, maybe the most popular of all, and the 2nd quartet is his most major and most well known work in the genre, both of which probably count a great deal towards it being the most strongly supported of the modern selections in this round. But it's also the case that one voter can't hold up more than two selections on their own, whichever way you split it someone's going to have to get two points, maybe even one, but even then it's no guarantee, even with a consistent stream of fives advancement is not assured, as we see with Ligeti in this case. Them's the breaks; with only three in every twenty making it through to the next stage it's very exclusive.

Just to be clear: At no point in this discussion has it been my intent to complain about other people's voting, I'm just making the observation that the way things are going I don't think it's going to be a very exciting list going into the next stage of the game.

[Florestan]

Here are the votes until today:

Baron Scarpia
Beethoven +10
Janacek +15
Mozart +5

San Antone
Arensky +13
Myaskovsky +7
Shostakovich +12
Weinberg +8

Mahlerian
Beethoven +4
Crumb +2
Janacek +15
Ligeti +10
Takemitsu +9


Then, today, Baron Scarpia and San Antone decide to vote for works they have not thus far supported, pushing them above Ligeti and Ligeti out of the game.

Do you imply that they had a hidden anti-Ligeti agenda and just waited for the right time to push it?

[Mahlerian]

Do you imply that they had a hidden anti-Ligeti agenda and just waited for the right time to push it?

I am not implying that at all, I am saying that they took the opportunity to push Ligeti out of the game rather than continue to support the works they had supported before.  Surely you see that this is effectively voting against Ligeti's work?

[San Antone]

I am not implying that at all, I am saying that they took the opportunity to push Ligeti out of the game rather than continue to support the works they had supported before.  Surely you see that this is effectively voting against Ligeti's work?

I didn't even know how many votes Ligeti had, I only looked at his total to see how many more votes he got than Weinberg.  I ignored Ligeti throughout the game since I knew I wasn't voting for him under any circumstances.  I didn't push him out of the game - I forgot he was even there.

[Florestan]

I am not implying that at all, I am saying that they took the opportunity to push Ligeti out of the game rather than continue to support the works they had supported before.  Surely you see that this is effectively voting against Ligeti's work?

Why single out Ligeti? There were 16 others that didn't make it to the final round, many with far fewer votes than Ligeti. Do you really feel that frustrated because in an innocuous and inconsequential game (game!) your favorite didn't win a place in the final?

[Mahlerian]

Why single out Ligeti? There were 16 others that didn't make it to the final round, many with far fewer votes than Ligeti. Do you really feel that frustrated because in an innocuous and inconsequential game (game!) your favorite didn't win a place in the final?

He wasn't my favorite.  My favorite work in this round, the one I voted for most, was Janacek.  I was irked by the fact that Ligeti's work was pushed out of contention at the last second.

[Florestan]

He wasn't my favorite.  My favorite work in this round, the one I voted for most, was Janacek.

Then why all the fuss about Ligeti?