Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord

[Que]

I do not know this recording. Where did you find it?

Tuma`s Bach, of which I own a bit (WTC, Goldbergs, AoF, Orgelbüchlein and CÛ III), has generally underwhelmed me (except the WTC). Maybe he is so introvert, that the expression does not fully materialize.

I feel the same. I considered Tuma's Bach quite a few times - a WTC on clavichord is not an every day occurrence - but shied away each time.

I was looking into Muffat's Apparatus Musico Organisticus as well, there are a few interesting options.

Q

[Mandryka]

I feel the same. I considered Tuma's Bach quite a few times - a WTC on clavichord is not an every day occurrence - but shied away each time.

I was looking into Muffat's Apparatus Musico Organisticus as well, there are a few interesting options.

Q

Have you tried the orgelbuchlein que? The CU3 is on spotify so I can check that one myself sometime.

And the AoF -- am I the only one to find it impressive? I'll listen again carefully  to it tonight and try and say why I liked it.

I started to listen to his Pachelbel CD too and didn't get into it, that one is maybe not so good.

[prémont]

I feel the same. I considered Tuma's Bach quite a few times - a WTC on clavichord is not an every day occurrence - but shied away each time.

Q

Being a completist I had to do more than just considering  , but on the other hand I do not listen much to these CDs. Funny enough I find his WTC to be the most interesting part of the CDs. The Goldbergs (2 CD set) are recorded by him on harpsichord as well as on the clavichord, and the clavichord version is by far the most expressive IMO.

[Wakefield]

Being a completist I had to do more than just considering  , but on the other hand I do not listen much to these CDs. Funny enough I find his WTC to be the most interesting part of the CDs. The Goldbergs (2 CD set) are recorded by him on harpsichord as well as on the clavichord, and the clavichord version is by far the most expressive IMO.

I don't know exactly if I agree or not with your opinions.

Personally, I'm a big fan of Jaroslav Tůma as a clavichord player and fortepianist.

As a clavichord player, he simply has a perfect touch for this demonically delicate instrument. Actually, his WTC is one of my favorite versions of this collection because it reveals an intimate/homely side of this work as no other version. I also like his Goldbergs (I also prefer the version on clavichord) and the Sinfonias & Inventions (clavichord). As a fortepianist his Haydn (Last Seven Words) and Rejcha (36 Fugues for Fortepiano) are excellent, too.

But I recognize that full enjoyment of his style probably requires a certain preference for the-things-almost-said, a bit understated and also a sort of delectation in the moderately slow pace.

That said, I have never felt any interest for his interpretations as organist because some of the aforementioned features are transformed in a sort of heaviness when he plays this instrument. 

[Que]

I don't know exactly if I agree or not with your opinions.

Personally, I'm a big fan of Jaroslav Tůma as a clavichord player and fortepianist.

As a clavichord player, he simply has a perfect touch for this demonically delicate instrument. Actually, his WTC is one of my favorite versions of this collection because it reveals an intimate/homely side of this work as no other version. I also like his Goldbergs (I also prefer the version on clavichord) and the Sinfonias & Inventions (clavichord). As a fortepianist his Haydn (Last Seven Words) and Rejcha (36 Fugues for Fortepiano) are excellent, too.

But I recognize that full enjoyment of his style probably requires a certain preference for the-things-almost-said, a bit understated and also a sort of delectation in the moderately slow pace.

That said, I have never felt any interest for his interpretations as organist because some of the aforementioned features are transformed in a sort of heaviness when he plays this instrument. 

That sounds encouraging! Il'll keep it in mind. I have my eye on the Rejcha Variations in particular.

Q

[prémont]

I don't know exactly if I agree or not with your opinions.

Personally, I'm a big fan of Jaroslav Tůma as a clavichord player and fortepianist.

As a clavichord player, he simply has a perfect touch for this demonically delicate instrument. Actually, his WTC is one of my favorite versions of this collection because it reveals an intimate/homely side of this work as no other version. I also like his Goldbergs (I also prefer the version on clavichord) and the Sinfonias & Inventions (clavichord). As a fortepianist his Haydn (Last Seven Words) and Rejcha (36 Fugues for Fortepiano) are excellent, too.

But I recognize that full enjoyment of his style probably requires a certain preference for the-things-almost-said, a bit understated and also a sort of delectation in the moderately slow pace.

That said, I have never felt any interest for his interpretations as organist because some of the aforementioned features are transformed in a sort of heaviness when he plays this instrument. 

The degree of intimacy is very different in the different pieces of the WTC. This is f.i. reflected in the choices of instruments in Chorzempa´s and Levin´s sets, the formers choices representing the almost ideal choices IMO. In the most intimate pieces I favour the opininion that Tuma is unsurpassed in his delicate expression, and I have never felt him to be on the annoyingly slow side, in a way which holds the music too much back, contrary to Watchorn e.g., whom I find often kills the pulse of the music. My first impression of his French suites is similar to the view milk expressed in the Bach on harpsichord thread, so if I decide to purchase Watchorn´s Partitas, this will be an act in the name of the holy completism.

As to Tuma´s organ recordings I agree with you about his heaviness, particularly in the CÜ III, but also to some extent in the Orgelbüchlein. His AoF on the other hand, most of which I listened to yesterday following a short discussion with Mandryka, i did not find heavy at all. and not as I recalled. Actually I liked it, finding it noble and serious, two characteristics I think are obligatory for performances this work.

[Wakefield]

[...] I have never felt him to be on the annoyingly slow side, in a way which holds the music too much back, contrary to Watchorn e.g., whom I find often kills the pulse of the music. My first impression of his French suites is similar to the view milk expressed in the Bach on harpsichord thread, so if I decide to purchase Watchorn´s Partitas, this will be an act in the name of the holy completism.

I agree about Tůma, but I deeply disagree on Watchorn.

It's true that the contrast between slow and fast suites is less sharp than usual, but the music anyway dances. I think -to many people- the real problem with Watchorn it's his own nature as performer: Quite intellectualized and a bit counterintuitive. "Easygoing" is not an adjective easily suitable for him.

Of course, I will order his Partitas very soon. 

[Mandryka]

The degree of intimacy is very different in the different pieces of the WTC. This is f.i. reflected in the choices of instruments in Chorzempa´s and Levin´s sets, the formers choices representing the almost ideal choices IMO. In the most intimate pieces I favour the opininion that Tuma is unsurpassed in his delicate expression, and I have never felt him to be on the annoyingly slow side, in a way which holds the music too much back, contrary to Watchorn e.g., whom I find often kills the pulse of the music. My first impression of his French suites is similar to the view milk expressed in the Bach on harpsichord thread, so if I decide to purchase Watchorn´s Partitas, this will be an act in the name of the holy completism.

As to Tuma´s organ recordings I agree with you about his heaviness, particularly in the CÜ III, but also to some extent in the Orgelbüchlein. His AoF on the other hand, most of which I listened to yesterday following a short discussion with Mandryka, i did not find heavy at all. and not as I recalled. Actually I liked it, finding it noble and serious, two characteristics I think are obligatory for performances this work.

I've only just noticed this post, premont. I'm glad you enjoyed that AoF more than you were expecting.

There are  a load of Tuma organ recordings on spotify, and my impression is that he is extremely variable, with some recordings which I really like (AoF, Muffat) and some which I like much less  (Pachelbel) - hard in fact to believe you're listening to the same guy. I may take a punt on his Orgelbüchlein.

Re Tuma vs. Chorzempa in WTC 1, the phrase "delicate expression" is spot on in the D minor prelude (bk 1) for example. I've only just started to listen to the Chorzempa WTC, and mostly in WTC2.  What I've enjoyed most from him is the clear vision of the voices all dancing a complicated dance with each other. I prefer Chorzempa to Tuma in the D minor fugue (bk1) .

On the other hand, In the E minor prelude of Bk 1 Chorzempa seems to play with tremedous delicacy and expressivelness.

[milk]

I have no idea what to make of this one.
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[kishnevi]

I have no idea what to make of this one.
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Authentic performance of how Bach was played in Beethoven's era?

[Que]

A whole set (10 discs) by Kenneth Gilbert, anyone?



Q

[Green Destiny]

A whole set (10 discs) by Kenneth Gilbert, anyone?



Q

I collected all the individual KG recordings in this set a few years ago - Its great this material is being re-issued. Worth it for the WTC version alone I think!

[Mandryka]

If they've done any remastering that would be very interesting, some of his things were horribly recorded (D'Aglebert for example.)  The WTC is a bit bass light from memory.

Bulldog mentioned how much he liked the AoF a few weeks ago and so I went to listen to it and it is indeed outstanding.  For a harpsichord version. The chromatic Fantasy is really special too I think.

The style is often very refined, not quite studious but . . . I dunno, well balanced, no great sense of virtuoso free woooosh of imagination. I quite like that, I think it's a plus point.

[Jo498]

I think Koopman and Egarr with time are going to make complete cycles.

Has Koopman made any harpsichord recordings recently? His Erato recordings include WTC, French Suites, Goldbergs, AoF, Italian Concerto and the Harpsichord concerti but they are about 20 years old or so, I believe.

Ross might have completed a Bach cycle had he lived longer: WTC 1+2, CÜ I,II,IV and a few fillers were recorded.

For whatever reason some labels preferred to split the corpus between different musicians: Archiv had Walcha, Kirkpatrick, Dreyfus in the 1950s-70s and Pinnock and Gilbert in the 1980s. The Teldec Bach 2000 had Curtis, Ross, Baumont, Wilson and probably another one or two. Hänssler mixed harpsichord and Lautenclavier with modern piano and used a half dozen musicians or so.

Verlets recordings must also be quite complete (but on 2 or more labels).

[prémont]

Has Koopman made any harpsichord recordings recently? His Erato recordings include WTC, French Suites, Goldbergs, AoF, Italian Concerto and the Harpsichord concerti but they are about 20 years old or so, I believe.

Yes, the partitas on his own label.

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-Partiten-BWV-825-830/hnum/1939979

And also the harpsichord/violin-sonatas and the Musical Offering on the same label.

[Jo498]

Reading through this thread, two recordings, among other things, caught my interest: Watchorn's WTC using a pedal harpsichord and Levin's with different instruments. I listened to the online samples of the former but could not really discover a different sound compared to a normal harpsichord. Are there passages in the online sample where one can hear the pedal?

The clavichord in Levin's WTC 1 does not sound very good on the samples (and on German amazon there is one reviewer who vastly prefers the 2nd book because the clavichord was supposedly captured better - unfortunately I find only sound samples for book 1).
Any comments on Levin's WTC, especially considering the clavichord sound?

I got to know most of Bach's keyboard music on the modern piano and I probably still tend to prefer it.

On harpsichord I have
Toccatas: Watchorn/Hänssler, Jaccottet/Intercord
Inventions/Sinfonias: Jaccottet/Intercord, Belder/Brilliant
French suites: Koopman
Ouverture b minor: Jaccottet, Pinnock
English suites: Rousset, Mustonen, half of Jaccottet
Partitas: 1/2/4/6 with Jaccottet, 1 with Pinnock. I lack a complete set on harpsichord. I used to have Rampe's but was not too fond and got rid of it in a "slim down the collection" phase. Ross's was recommended strongly to but it is oop now and too expensive used.
Goldbergs: Leonhardt/dhm, Dantone, Pinnock
WTK I: Jaccottet, Ross, Beausejour
WTK II: Jaccottet, Koopman, Dantone
AoF: Hill, Guillot/Naxos

I also have a two or three more of Hill's on Hänssler with Lautenclavier and arrangements of the violin partitas, a Staier disc with a few Toccatas and fillers and an anthology with Leonhardt playing two suites (after cello, lute), two toccatas, italian concerto etc, and now another anthology in that Leonhardt Legend box. Probably a few more "italian concertos" as well.

except for the complete partitas I don't really feel I am missing anything (I have no ambitions to listen to everything), but the WTC's mentioned above seem interesting enough to be worthwhile additions. Probably also another set of the French suites.

[prémont]

Any comments on Levin's WTC, especially considering the clavichord sound?

I have not felt bothered by this, so I shall need to relisten.

except for the complete partitas I don't really feel I am missing anything (I have no ambitions to listen to everything), but the WTC's mentioned above seem interesting enough to be worthwhile additions. Probably also another set of the French suites.

Concerning the Partitas I will recommend Suzuki (BIS) and Martin Gester (Ligia Digital). They are very different. While Suzuki is passionate (somewhat unusual for him), Gester is sweet and singing. These different attitudes are in a way complementary, and both work IMO well.

You already have my preferred version of the French suites (Koopman/Erato). How do you want another version to be? Brilliant? Elegant? Passionate? Intimate?

[Mandryka]

Remember that there are only about four or five preludes and fugues in Levin's WTC 2 on clavichord.

I think, given your curiosity about clavichord, you should sample Colin Tilney's French Suites. And, though it's not clavichord, John Paul's. He use a lute harpsichord with some sort of system of leather headed hammers which, to my ears, sounds a little bit like a clavichord.

For a real serious conceptual difference from Koopman's, you may find Francesco Cera's French Suites stimulating. I was initially really negative about them but I've come to like them more and more, for the seriousness, and the variety of mood.

[Jo498]

Does anyone have a preference for Levin's book I or II? Because of that amazon review I tend to book 2 (but I can only listen to samples of 1...) Or what do you generally think about his mix of instruments? or about the very idea to mix them?

Thanks for the other recs, I'll look into them. From the samples I tend to prefer Suzuki to Gester in the partitas but unfortunately the sound of the harpsichord is often different/worse on the typical online samples than on the actual recordings.

[amw]

On harpsichord I have
Toccatas: Watchorn/Hänssler, Jaccottet/Intercord
Inventions/Sinfonias: Jaccottet/Intercord, Belder/Brilliant
French suites: Koopman
Ouverture b minor: Jaccottet, Pinnock
English suites: Rousset, Mustonen, half of Jaccottet
Partitas: 1/2/4/6 with Jaccottet, 1 with Pinnock. I lack a complete set on harpsichord. I used to have Rampe's but was not too fond and got rid of it in a "slim down the collection" phase. Ross's was recommended strongly to but it is oop now and too expensive used.
Goldbergs: Leonhardt/dhm, Dantone, Pinnock
WTK I: Jaccottet, Ross, Beausejour
WTK II: Jaccottet, Koopman, Dantone
AoF: Hill, Guillot/Naxos

Hmm. I also got to know Bach on the modern piano (mostly by playing it on a modern piano though, rather than listening). I have pretty limited recordings on harpsichord and I don't think I've listened to them in a while.

Goldbergs: Takashi Watanabe (I remember this as being sort of... mystical is the adjective that comes to mind, like entering a different plane of existence, idk)
French Suites: Christophe Rousset (iirc pretty high energy, unrealistically but entertainingly big sound, good feel for the rhythms)
English Suites: 2 & 6 with Pierre Hantaï, also feat. Italian Concerto (I don't remember much about this one, I mean it's Hantaï so probably not hard to guess, lol)
WTC I & II: Bob van Asperen (very straight and unaffected, attempting to let the notes speak for themselves. Effective for me, but some might find it boring)

I don't have the rest of the English Suites, or any of the Partitas, Inventions, Sinfonias, Toccatas, or the French Overture or Art of Fugue. I do have a disc of transcriptions (the Sonata BWV 965 after Reincken + the Concerto BWV 978 after Vivaldi + the possibly inauthentic Sonata BWV 964 after the Violin Sonata BWV 1003) played by Benjamin Alard which is very good indeed.

Might be in the market for recordings of the Inventions & Sinfonias and the Toccatas, as it doesn't look like I have any of those, even on modern piano.