Sibelius 4

[Mirror Image]

0:)   Amen!   And so...if the music is enigmatic, do not try to explain it via an "interpretation."  Let it be enigmatic!  Stravinsky on that basis was much against "interpretation."

It's difficult to be against an interpretation, but if the interpretative liberty becomes so overbearing when the music doesn't even call for it, it is doing the music a great disservice, IMHO. Of course, someone else's mileage may vary.

[Biffo]

But I love 60's Lenny Sibelius and 80's Lenny Sibelius which is completely different.  Why is Lenny so bad?

As he got older he got slower and more self-indulgent, pulling the music about horribly. Works in which he was supreme such as Beethoven 3 and Brahms 1 are caricatures in his gruesome Vienna recordings.

From his NYPO days I have his Haydn, Beethoven, Berlioz, Brahms, Mahler, Sibelius, Nielsen etc - all have wonderful performances and only the occasional dud. His later stuff I generally can't abide. Perhaps it is just me.

[aukhawk]

I do enjoy his Vienna recordings of the 5th and 7th symphonies - indulgent though they be, it works for me in the major-key, more extrovert symphonies.  I also like his controversial recording of the Pathetique symphony.  But I listened to his NYPO recording of Sibelius 4 the other day (after this thread was started) and it just seems to miss the mark by quite a wide margin - sounding almost Vienna-ish, in fact - although I have to say the remastered sound is remarkably good.  Of course most of his NYPO recordings are very worthwhile indeed - my own favourite among those is Lenny's Mahler 3.

[relm1]

I think what some people have an objection to is how Bernstein overdramatizes Sibelius' music. A case in point would be the final movement of Symphony No. 2, which could use some toning down and more of a detached approach in order to not let the music get too carried away. Also, if I only had Bernstein's recording of Symphony No. 6, for example, I would have never understood this symphony, which, IMHO, is the most enigmatic of all seven symphonies. Bernstein just doesn't let the music speak for itself and I think this is where many conductors fail in Sibelius.

It's actually an interesting point you are making.  For example, NEVE amplifiers are legendary in the recording studio.  Like at Abbey Road, they have a set of vintage NEVE amps that "colors" the recording.  I love the color they add.  But there is something to be said for the better the musician, the less outside tampering should be made with the performance.  Let the London Symphony sing without added color that detracts from the quality of their performances.  Makes sense.  With Bernstein, what is phenomenal is that his "coloring" is meticulously conceived though heavy handed as it might be.  For example, I was reading the score to one of the Sibelius symphonies while listening and frustrated how many depart from the score.  Like dynamics aren't respected or accents are ignored, things like that.  But in Bernstein, even in the Vienna recordings, the markings were all followed closely but in his way.  That is fine with me.

[Herman]

depending on one's definition of drama, there is drama in Sibelius.

However Bernstein had a rather narrow definition of drama as a conductor

Other than that I get the feeling it's very hard for a conductor to go wrong in Sibelius.

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

As he got older he got slower and more self-indulgent, pulling the music about horribly. Works in which he was supreme such as Beethoven 3 and Brahms 1 are caricatures in his gruesome Vienna recordings.

From his NYPO days I have his Haydn, Beethoven, Berlioz, Brahms, Mahler, Sibelius, Nielsen etc - all have wonderful performances and only the occasional dud. His later stuff I generally can't abide. Perhaps it is just me.

How many well-done recordings do we need. Some of his self-indulgent later stuff is interesting. I like his crazy-slow Sibelius 2.

[Daverz]

An excellent recording from an unexpected quarter is the Ansermet:

[asin] B0019C6J1C[/asin]

[amw]

depending on one's definition of drama, there is drama in Sibelius.

However Bernstein had a rather narrow definition of drama as a conductor

Other than that I get the feeling it's very hard for a conductor to go wrong in Sibelius.

It's very difficult to get Sibelius right actually—the subtlety of his phrasing & the way phrases overlap and are extended is something few conductors seem to bring out. I guess the good news is the music still sounds sort of ok without an understanding of the phrasing, even if it can sound directionless; listeners have managed to turn directionlessness into one of Sibelius's virtues >.>

[Irons]

It's very difficult to get Sibelius right actually—the subtlety of his phrasing & the way phrases overlap and are extended is something few conductors seem to bring out. I guess the good news is the music still sounds sort of ok without an understanding of the phrasing, even if it can sound directionless; listeners have managed to turn directionlessness into one of Sibelius's virtues >.>

I agree. Few get Sibelius right. I can't stand the romantic approach (Bernstein) but do not like the flipside (Berglund) either. When a conductor does get it right (Collins) the Sibelius set of symphonies are electrifying.

[bhodges]

Among the many fine Sibelius 4 recordings mentioned, does anyone else like Ashkenazy/Philharmonia (coupled with Finlandia and Luonnotar)? This was one of Ashkenazy's cycle that impressed me the most (along with No. 7), and my introduction to No. 4.

[asin]B0000042GV[/asin]

--Bruce

[Biffo]

Among the many fine Sibelius 4 recordings mentioned, does anyone else like Ashkenazy/Philharmonia (coupled with Finlandia and Luonnotar)? This was one of Ashkenazy's cycle that impressed me the most (along with No. 7), and my introduction to No. 4.

[asin]B0000042GV[/asin]

--Bruce

This is one of my favourite cycles with Nos 1, 2 & 7 the highlights for me

[bhodges]

This is one of my favourite cycles with Nos 1, 2 & 7 the highlights for me

Ah, glad to hear. This might have been my first experience with Ashkenazy conducting...anything.

--Bruce

[PerfectWagnerite]

Anyone know if there is a cd version of this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q0yLj4LVcs&t=333s

Is that really Szell/Cleveland?

[TheGSMoeller]

An excellent recording from an unexpected quarter is the Ansermet:

[asin] B0019C6J1C[/asin]

Sampling the 4th through Apple Music, I like the sound and interpretation so far. I started with the 4th mvt. which I've always loved, the ending is my kind of slow.
I'd be interested to hear the 2nd from this. Thanks for posting, Daverz!

[Herman]

Among the many fine Sibelius 4 recordings mentioned, does anyone else like Ashkenazy/Philharmonia (coupled with Finlandia and Luonnotar)?

It's one of my favorites

[bhodges]

It's one of my favorites

And thanks for weighing in. I don't hear much about this cycle, presumably because other, more recent ones may have surpassed it, especially sonically. (Possible that the 1980s recording doesn't quite hold up.) That said, I recall liking the sense of swirling motion and pacing.

--Bruce

[aukhawk]

With Beecham (1930s) Ormandy, Collins (50s), Ansermet, Bernstein, Karajan DG (60s), Berglund BSO, Maazel, Karajan EMI (70s) all getting positive shouts so far, a 1980s recording shouldn't be a concern in this context!

[bhodges]

With Beecham (1930s) Ormandy, Collins (50s), Ansermet, Bernstein, Karajan DG (60s), Berglund BSO, Maazel, Karajan EMI (70s) all getting positive shouts so far, a 1980s recording shouldn't be a concern in this context!

Well, point taken!

--Bruce

[vandermolen]

This comes with a health warning! Sanderling takes the 4th to another level of darkness then any other version I have heard.

Following the recommendation from Irons I am listening to this recording. It is, I agree, a terrific performance in all respects:

[Irons]

Following the recommendation from Irons I am listening to this recording. It is, I agree, a terrific performance in all respects:

Many thanks for taking the trouble and I am delighted you enjoyed the performance.