English Pastoralism

[Biffo]

Very interesting point as is Irons's post responding to it. I'll have to give some thought to the difference, if one exists, between 'Pastoralism' and 'Impressionism' in the context of English music.

To muddy the waters a bit more, while this thread has been progressing I have been pondering the difference between pastoralism and landscape. Several works already mentioned are really landscapes - In the Fen Country, North Country Sketches, Tarn Hows - and bleak ones at that, not really 'pastoral' as I interpret the OP to mean.  There are also several fine seascapes - Bridge, Britten, Bax etc. All these possibly are better described as Impressionist influenced.

As to other influences, while listening recently to Barbirolli recordings of Delius A Song of Summer I thought it owed as much to Wagner's Forest Murmurs as any English or French models. But, as I said earlier I don't really think of Delius as an 'English' composer.

[Irons]

To test the water, if RVW had written "Gigues" would it sound the same?

[Biffo]

To test the water, if RVW had written "Gigues" would it sound the same?

Probably not, it would have sounded more like his teacher, Ravel.

[Christo]

To test the water, if RVW had written "Gigues" would it sound the same?

Actually, he did write a Gigues:
https://www.youtube.com/v/tgBHr3z-jlg

[JBS]

To muddy the waters a bit more, while this thread has been progressing I have been pondering the difference between pastoralism and landscape. Several works already mentioned are really landscapes - In the Fen Country, North Country Sketches, Tarn Hows - and bleak ones at that, not really 'pastoral' as I interpret the OP to mean.  There are also several fine seascapes - Bridge, Britten, Bax etc. All these possibly are better described as Impressionist influenced.

As to other influences, while listening recently to Barbirolli recordings of Delius A Song of Summer I thought it owed as much to Wagner's Forest Murmurs as any English or French models. But, as I said earlier I don't really think of Delius as an 'English' composer.

I think of Delius as English.  And having just finished listening to a work by him which I think fits very well into the Pastoral despite its ostensible subject.  So perhaps the best resolution is along the  lines of the idea that Pastoralism is linked to Impressionism in some way.

The work in question btw is Paris Song of a Great City.

[Irons]

Actually, he did write a Gigues:
https://www.youtube.com/v/tgBHr3z-jlg

Thanks for link. Listening, this come to mind. https://youtu.be/1knSQRRee3I

[Christo]

Thanks for link. Listening, this come to mind. https://youtu.be/1knSQRRee3I

(Yes, remember it). I forgot another 'Gigues/Jig', namely the Finale of the marvelous (1947) Suite for Pipes:
https://www.youtube.com/v/KVisNSu-APA

[relm1]

To muddy the waters a bit more, while this thread has been progressing I have been pondering the difference between pastoralism and landscape. Several works already mentioned are really landscapes - In the Fen Country, North Country Sketches, Tarn Hows - and bleak ones at that, not really 'pastoral' as I interpret the OP to mean.  There are also several fine seascapes - Bridge, Britten, Bax etc. All these possibly are better described as Impressionist influenced.

As to other influences, while listening recently to Barbirolli recordings of Delius A Song of Summer I thought it owed as much to Wagner's Forest Murmurs as any English or French models. But, as I said earlier I don't really think of Delius as an 'English' composer.

Fascinating point.  I think of English pastoralism as representing the tranquility of the English countryside in its various incarnations (sunrise, dusk, morning fog, maybe animals grazing, etc).  They are meditative in nature, almost like a shepherd watching his flock.  Landscapes are terse.   Cliffs, Jagged coastlines, the northern winds, frequent swells, etc., more Sibelius, Bax, and Arthur Butterworth.  Less Delius, Vaughan Williams, and Finzi.  All these composers do inhabit both soundscapes from time to time, but there is a general association.  For example, RVW can be very craggy but he has purity in his pastoralism to which I think he is most identified with which is why at premieres of his 4th, they fair less well because there is a sonic expectation of what the composer will create.

[Irons]

I think generalisations are tricky. As RVW said of the "Pastoral" "not really lambkins frisking at all as most people take for granted".

[Mirror Image]

I think generalisations are tricky. As RVW said of the "Pastoral" "not really lambkins frisking at all as most people take for granted".

Indeed. I believe Vaughan Williams thought of the Pastoral Symphony as some kind of memorial or elegy for the slain soldiers that he knew personally, but also a quest for peace and for things to be restored as they once were. I think by the time he got to Symphony No. 4, it is clear that the world that he yearned for would never come back and there's simply nothing he could do about it. There was also some turmoil in his personal life after this time that also played a part in it I'm sure.