Author Topic: The Troubadour Thread.  (Read 18435 times)

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Offline San Antone

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2019, 07:41:54 AM »


In light of all of the above, I ask you: what's wrong with Zuccheto?

Nothing is wrong with Zuccheto IMO; I wish I could find his five volume series of recordings but they have been OOP for years.  First, his is about the only complete, or near complete, set of all of the known songs with both texts and music available; next, his group of performers is excellent and his musicology, from what I can tell, is first rate.

I cannot comment on the earlier posts which have been dismissive of his recordings, to each his own, but speaking for myself, Zuccheto's troubadour recordings are wonderful.

Online Mandryka

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2019, 08:08:41 AM »



Here comes a rave.


At last. A trouvères recording which I’m as enthusiastic about as I was about the Martin Best Ensemble Amour de lonh troubadours CD, and for similar reasons: restrained use of instrumental colour, diction of singers makes it sound interesting, introspective, heartfelt, expressive. Who are the singers? Can anyone help? I like many of their voices. I can’t find anything about this recording, which I’m listening to on Qobuz.

« Last Edit: May 30, 2019, 08:13:06 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline Zeus

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2019, 12:46:51 PM »
A couple things popped up on Google:

Active from: 1980
Genre: Classical
Members: Dominique Thibaudat
Albums: Missa de angelis, Chants de l'Amour divin, MORE
Record labels: Cyprès, Bayard Musique, Studio SM, MONTHABOR Music, Solstice
Songs...


Also something on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/Ensemble-Venance-Fortunat/e/B003RVRMQO/works/ref=ep_artist_tab_w

Includes a couple informative user reviews.  Note one disc is listed for almost $2,000 bucks!
« Last Edit: May 30, 2019, 12:54:36 PM by Zeus »
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Online Mandryka

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2019, 07:56:51 PM »
I found more details about the Trouvères CD here

http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/cds/led13045.htm

And their other recordings here

http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/cds/led13036.htm

The high price is just due to the obsolescence of the CD format, the recording, but unfortunately not the CD liner notes, are all streamable ubiquitously.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2019, 07:59:15 PM by Mandryka »
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Online Que

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2019, 01:59:19 AM »
I wouldn't call myself a fan of the genre.
But recently I took a chance with a bargain, and was utterly charmed!  :)
Artistically very impressive...


Q


Online Mandryka

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2019, 07:12:32 AM »


But Diabolus in Musica, in my opinion, are somewhat put in the shade in the Gautier de Coincy department by Alla Francesca, who are even more rapt, and even more communicative, whose singers are more seductive apart from Jean Paul Rigaud on the Guerber CD. They have stars, and it shows. Pierre Hamon, Emmanuel Bonnardot, Catherine Sergent and Brigitte Lesne. Alla Francesca use a wider range of instruments, including a hurdy gurdy, they're all used tastefully and mostly one at a time in the songs, as it probably should be to be correct about it, they may even be accompanying themselves.

Re singing style, Gautier was explicit about what he wanted, writing

Quote
We priests, we singers, we clerics and we monks must sing night and day to Our Lady who, soujourning in Paradise, takes to her all those that serve her well. But I see a great many who are very idle! They continually bray, shout and stretch their voices, but they do not tune their lyre at all: their singing is lamentable! Their mouths lie to God and are discordant if to him their hearts are not in concordance. God and his mother derive no more pleasure from such mouths which sing in descant, sing organum and in fifths than they would from the laughter of a donkey. I know of quite a few whose voices sooner or later go wrong if they are not thoroughly steeped in strong wine! They only manage to sing if they are warmed up with wine. But when the wine has done its work of healing, they then can sing organum, have a high old time and move the entire monastery. I know of others whose voices are weak and broken, but if they are fortified with good wine, they can sing out as loudly as the rest of them. So they bray and bawl and run along to pray to Saint Twist, son of the bent woman, he who makes you walk crooked. God does not listen to a voice if there is no devotion in the heart. From the heart must flow forth the spring which causes the voice to be pleasing to God. A loud and clear voice is not necessarily pleasing either to God or his mother. Somebody singing quietly and without great skill may well be more readily listened to by God than somebody else who sings organum loudly and sings a fifth above the rest. God gives not a fig for beautified clear and pleasant voices, for the sound of the harp or the viol, the psalterion or the organ if a devotional heart is not involved. God listens to the intention, not to the voice or the instrument.

Well there you go, I agree with my mate Gautier here.

Recommended CD this one, by me.

Oh, Alla Francesca is superbly well recorded to boot.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 07:54:29 AM by Mandryka »
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Online Mandryka

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2019, 01:35:32 AM »
his musicology, from what I can tell, is first rate.





Listening to Bernart Ventadorn’s ab joie mou Lo vers e-l commens, it’s in vol 1 of La Trobà. A lot of vibrato, and a wide range of instruments used even while she’s singing. It would be nice to know if he’s got a musicologist in tow,  but he is silent about that sort of thing. I wonder if Zuccheto is one of those dastardly  music directors who

intentionally obfuscate the interpretive choices by willfully ignoring established musicology and performance practice in a self-absorbed vision of their own importance.

The singer has a characterful voice, I like her voice.

There’s a very different take on the same song by my favourite, Martin Best, and Thomas Binkley did it in the style of David Gilmore and Roger Waters, well worth catching as a historical curiosity. On their Martin Codax recording.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2019, 01:49:58 AM by Mandryka »
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Online Mandryka

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2019, 02:21:50 AM »
Is this the right place? I don’t know, but I can see that the composer sometimes rightly or wrongly figures in collections of Trouvères. Que posted one above.

No one really knows who he was, Gaultier d’Épinal, but that’s par for the course really. Academics are unclear about whether he was nobleman of Épinal or of Metz, caught up in disputes between  kings and popes. Even I, who can read modern French but has never studied early French, can see that he is one hell of a poet - look at this:

Quote
Me plaing seur touz d’une gent malparliere,
Qui souvent ont moi et autres traï
si com cil qui ne puet merci trouver et qui en soi n’a maiz point de fiance. Si cum Equo, qui sert de recorder
Ce qu’autres dit et par sa seurquidance
Ne la deigna Narcisus reguarder, Ainz secha toute d’ardure,
Fors la vois qui encor dure,
Einsi perdrai tout fors merci crïer
Et secherai de duel et de pesance. Maiz Amours, qui Narcisus fist mirer, Quant pour Equo en velt prendre venjance,
S’einsi vousist pour li une autre amer, Tel qui de li n’eüst cure,
Mis l’eust a sa droiture
Le grant orgueill qui le fait relever
Et en venist pluz tost a repentance

This CD has about 10 pieces by him, various genres and styles, and I think it’s fabulous.



And in terms of music, what to say? Melancholy, a serious melancholy, which is really attractive to me. And enough complexity in the melodies and the rhythms to stop the music wearing out its welcome. The leader of Ensemble Syntagma, Emilia Danilevski, has worked with, amongst others, Gérard le Vot to create the music. She says something which, the more experience I have with this sort of music, the more I think it’s true, so Ensemble Syntagma is a group I shall be investigating

Quote
“I think that unfortunately medieval music is in need of a certain
rehabilitation: often its profundity is hidden behind its exoticism.”
« Last Edit: June 30, 2019, 02:29:21 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline San Antone

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2019, 04:31:55 AM »
Is this the right place? I don’t know, but I can see that the composer sometimes rightly or wrongly figures in collections of Trouvères. Que posted one above.

No one really knows who he was, Gaultier d’Épinal, but that’s par for the course really. Academics are unclear about whether he was nobleman of Épinal or of Metz, caught up in disputes between  kings and popes. Even I, who can read modern French but has never studied early French, can see that he is one hell of a poet - look at this:

This CD has about 10 pieces by him, various genres and styles, and I think it’s fabulous.



And in terms of music, what to say? Melancholy, a serious melancholy, which is really attractive to me. And enough complexity in the melodies and the rhythms to stop the music wearing out its welcome. The leader of Ensemble Syntagma, Emilia Danilevski, has worked with, amongst others, Gérard le Vot to create the music. She says something which, the more experience I have with this sort of music, the more I think it’s true, so Ensemble Syntagma is a group I shall be investigating

The leader of Ensemble Syntagma is Alexandre Danilevski - is Emilia his wife?

Interesting interview with him HERE.

Online Mandryka

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2019, 07:38:27 AM »
The leader of Ensemble Syntagma is Alexandre Danilevski - is Emilia his wife?

Interesting interview with him HERE.

Thanks for that interview, lots to think about there.
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Online Mandryka

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2019, 04:19:08 AM »


The singer here, Laia Frogolé, brings a gentle, sensual vulnerability to these songs by Bernart de Ventadorn. I like her style very much. The ensemble, Mos Azimans, include the usual flute, drums, organetto and bowed instrument, and what they do is not offensive - but it’s the singing which makes the recording memorable for me.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2019, 06:15:22 AM by Mandryka »
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Online Mandryka

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2019, 02:33:50 AM »
I just want to make a post about Jean Paul Rigaud, in my opinion he’s the best I’ve heard among practising singers at making troubadour material work, he has the skills of declamation necessary to make the music sound meaningful and not vacuous, he has the taste to not  make it over exotic without making it sound baroque or renaissance or trippy or celtic or folksy or like a Barcelona brothel. His instrumental lines are genuinely interesting and intelligent and stimulating to hear. He’s a baritonal tenor.

He used to work a lot with Diabolus in Musica, who have several recordings dedicated to troubadour material, but he really comes into his stride when he’s away from them, with his own group called Ensembe Beatus. I have two of their recordings, both of which I like very much. The second especially, which is  another exploration of what is a common theme which I think even impacts music of the renaissance: the porosity of  the sacred and the profane.

.   

And earlier this year they released a third, which I’ve just ordered

« Last Edit: July 28, 2019, 04:37:26 AM by Mandryka »
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Online Mandryka

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2019, 01:40:23 AM »


This is probably not the right place to note this one, though there’s a fair amount of Troubaadour material on it. What a joy to discover this solo recording from Evelyn Tubb - with such intelligent and refined  instrumentation. 
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Online Mandryka

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2019, 07:10:22 AM »


This is an extremely good example of something that's almost impossibly difficult: Paul Hillier presents a handful of songs by Martin Codax solo, no instruments. It makes me think I should revisit his other troubadour CDs where he does the same type of thing.

I saw Raitis Grigalis do the same with a Minnesang piece in an Ensemble Leones concert, and he pulled it off because it was dramatic and demonstrative -- it was fun but really we were browbeaten into listening. These Martin Codax renditions are much more internal and intimate.

« Last Edit: August 24, 2019, 07:21:05 AM by Mandryka »
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Online Mandryka

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2020, 11:09:36 AM »
     


Very nice little essay on some of the interpretation issues surrounding this material in this recording from Ensemble Super Librum. I wish they had said more, but we have whant we have. The CD has become a great favourite of mine, for the austerity and imaginativeness of the instruments -- recorder, drum, organ --  and the quality of the voices.

Quote
The troubadours were first and foremost concerned with language, with langue d'oc. Although they dispose of a fairly adequate system of musical notation, the melodies to which their texts are sung are written down in a very sketchy manner. Only the mode or tone colouring can be inferred. Rhythmical and instrumental indications are absent. The melodies that have come down to us are related to the Gregorian and the Moorish melodic traditions.

The performers are professional musicians: the jongleurs. Usually, they sing what the troubadours composed. As regards the instrumental accompaniment of the songs, we can only guess. A good present-day example of this tradition we still find in the composed music of the Arab, the Eastern, and---nearer home---the Celtic world. This music, handed down orally, has its roots in a culture that is conservative in the positive sense of the word. We assume that to this essentially monodic music the jongleurs improvised an accompaniment (which would therefore differ from performance to performance) in order to stress the mode. So the singing is supported by improvised preludes, interludes and postludes. Because oral tradition formed the basis for the music of the jongleurs, no instrumental music from this period has been handed down in writing. Yet we do know that the nota (melody) of long verse forms like the estampie and the lai was performed on instruments. Thus, on the melody of 'Be m'an perdut' I wrote a new estampie: the 'Estampida perduda' 71 in the style of a manuscript of troubadour songs and estampies dated about one hundred years later (Paris BN fr. 844, 'Le manuscript du Roy'), the oldest surviving instrumental dance music. The troubadour and jongleur Raembaut de Vaqueiras (ca. 1160 - after 1207) did it the other way round: he wrote his 'Kalenda maya' (song for the first of May) to the tune of an estampie he had heard performed by two Parisian jongleurs.

In the same way, the Provencal 'Lai non par'  formed the point of departure for our instrumental lai. In performing it, the material is treated very freely (improvisation). The use of the tbilet (double vase drum) stresses the fact that Moorish influence on Mediterranean music was very strong at the time.

Although apparently opposed to each other, the interchange between church music and worldly music was very important. We have attempted to express the interchange between two groups of musicians, the clerics and the jongleurs, in the improvisation entitled 'Virgo' In this so-called 'Phrygian improvisation' centred around the minor second f-e, we hear a rhythmically free melody (based on the Indian raga 'Bhilaskhani todi') developing into a rhythmical melody. This increasing rhythmicity takes shape in the melisma 'Virgo" the basis of the earliest rhythmical polyphony: the clausulae. This music is particularly interesting: it may well have been instrumental music, improvised by jongleurs (it has generally come down to us without texts). In fact, it was the earliest form of rhythmical polyphony in our Western music.

It is certain that music from the monasteries had its repercussions on the creative process of the troubadours. Of noble birth, they depended on these monasteries for their education. Once this education was finished, the troubadours remained winter guests in the monasteries, where they wrote their poems and composed their songs. The improvisation 'Virgo' is an attempt to reconstruct music as it was perhaps played by the jongleurs in church and monastery.

In my experience Ensemble Super Librum are often worth hearing, they're one of the ensembles I'd love to see in concert.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2020, 11:12:16 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline deprofundis

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2020, 04:15:57 PM »
Dear honrable Mandryka, I have an album by Jauffre Rudel all do you're look more interesting, and what Le Roman de Fauvel and Le roman de la rose do they fit in troubadours, Carles Magraner troubador album whit majestic Cappella Del Minister, is very great  for this mather.There is many Troubadour worth investigating , nice tread sir.
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Online Mandryka

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2020, 10:43:25 PM »
Dear honrable Mandryka, I have an album by Jauffre Rudel all do you're look more interesting, and what Le Roman de Fauvel and Le roman de la rose do they fit in troubadours, Carles Magraner troubador album whit majestic Cappella Del Minister, is very great  for this mather.There is many Troubadour worth investigating , nice tread sir.

Magraner is always good. For music from Roman de la Rose don’t forget Per Sonat




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Offline aligreto

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #37 on: March 27, 2020, 04:36:02 AM »
Dear honrable Mandryka, I have an album by Jauffre Rudel all do you're look more interesting, and what Le Roman de Fauvel and Le roman de la rose do they fit in troubadours, Carles Magraner troubador album whit majestic Cappella Del Minister, is very great  for this mather.There is many Troubadour worth investigating , nice tread sir.

Cross post from the Listening Thread:


Music of the Troubadours -





Jaufre Rudel: Lanquan li jorn [Ensemble Unicorn/Oni Wytars]

This is quite an extensive piece at 17:31 minutes long. It tells a tragic tale and the music is suitably atmospheric and evocative and forlorn and intense in tone and mood. The female vocal is powerful, haunting, passionate and plaintive. The flavour of the music is heavily Turkish/Arabic. This is an excellent performance from all concerned.
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Offline San Antone

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #38 on: March 27, 2020, 06:11:19 AM »
Cross post from the Listening Thread:


Music of the Troubadours -





Jaufre Rudel: Lanquan li jorn [Ensemble Unicorn/Oni Wytars]

This is quite an extensive piece at 17:31 minutes long. It tells a tragic tale and the music is suitably atmospheric and evocative and forlorn and intense in tone and mood. The female vocal is powerful, haunting, passionate and plaintive. The flavour of the music is heavily Turkish/Arabic. This is an excellent performance from all concerned.

Love this music, and this recording is a good one.  That piece is a great example of how sophisticated this music can be.  8)

Offline aligreto

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Re: The Troubadour Thread.
« Reply #39 on: March 27, 2020, 06:57:13 AM »
Love this music, and this recording is a good one.  That piece is a great example of how sophisticated this music can be.  8)

Cheers. Yes it is a wonderful CD and I agree with your comment on the quality of the music.
This is a wonderful thread and I wish that I could have contributed more to it but my exposure to and knowledge of the genre is rather limited I am afraid.
There is a lot to explore here so perhaps I can do so some time in the future.  :)
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