Bruckner's Abbey

[Cato]

Super nice write-up, GS. Thanks for sharing. I like the part about the transparent sound. I'd definitely like to sample these soon.

That does sound very intriguing, and I am not sure I have heard much by the Suisse Romande Orchestra since the days of Ansermet!

Are there any specific symphonies where the transparency is especially startling?

[André]

Re: the Bruckner scherzos: it's obvious from symphonies 0-3  that Bruckner had the pattern and language down pat.. He made something different with symphony 4 (the 'hunting' scherzo) and very different with that  of the 5th symphony. It sounds more of a collage or pointillistic essay than any of the preceding ones. Then, in symphonies 6 and 7 he returns to the tried and tested peasant-hunting brueghelian form he had devised in 1-4. In symphonies 8 and 9 he veered ooff that model. But that is another story.

Right now: listening to 8 under Schuricht (Hamburg Radio Smphony, 1955 vintage). Powerful stufff.

[MishaK]

Re: the Bruckner scherzos: it's obvious from symphonies 0-3  that Bruckner had the pattern and language down pat.. He made something different with symphony 4 (the 'hunting' scherzo) and very different with that  of the 5th symphony.

You need to consider the original third movement for the 4th as well, which is entirely different from what came before or after.

[vandermolen]

I really enjoyed the Rattle CD and agree that it is the best 'completion' of the work. I also agree that Bruckner would have written something significantly different had he lived - maybe he had set himself an impossible task - like Sibelius after his 7th Symphony - what more is there to say after the third movement of Bruckner's 9th Symphony?

[calyptorhynchus]

I really enjoyed the Rattle CD and agree that it is the best 'completion' of the work. I also agree that Bruckner would have written something significantly different had he lived - maybe he had set himself an impossible task - like Sibelius after his 7th Symphony - what more is there to say after the third movement of Bruckner's 9th Symphony?

I don't think that Bruckner's completion of his Ninth would have been much different from what we hear on the Rattle disk, 75% of it is just orchestrating what Bruckner wrote in short score and most of the rest is repeating material from Bruckner's score, the only bit that is conjectural is the final few minutes and that, to me, sounds completely convincing.

Robert Simpson in his book on Bruckner (the revised 1992 version) couldn't accept that the sketches that were then published of the Ninth's finale could built the momentum necessary for a true Bruckner finale. However, had he lived to hear this version, I think he would have accepted it because what he wrote about the finale of the Eighth applies even more accurately to this completion: 'The Finale is, for all its splendour, the calmest part of the Symphony. It is the cathedral that the architect had been trying, through all the world's distractions, to find in the mind's eye. One by one the impediments have been removed, until the image is clearly reveled. It can now be contemplated, sometimes with quiet absorption, sometimes with a sense of exhilaration, and once* recalling past despair. Again we must not expect such a finale to develop speed: its movement is vast and slow, and its active periods do not affect the deep pulse that forms its life.' (* perhaps in the case of the Ninth's finale 'often').

This is not to say of course that what we have is perfect; if Bruckner had finished it fully (or perhaps if his completed score had survived, if you believe that he had in fact finished it), we would find it to be much more wonderful that what we have now (in the same way that if Mahler had orchestrated the tenth it would be incomparably more wonderful than any of the orchestrated versions). But it's better to have this than not.

One thing that saddens me, though, is that Bruckner would easily have been able to finish the Ninth if he hadn't been sidetracked into the pointless revisions of the earlier symphonies he undertook in the late 1880s and early 1890s.

[Cato]

I don't think that Bruckner's completion of his Ninth would have been much different from what we hear on the Rattle disk, 75% of it is just orchestrating what Bruckner wrote in short score and most of the rest is repeating material from Bruckner's score, the only bit that is conjectural is the final few minutes and that, to me, sounds completely convincing.

Robert Simpson in his book on Bruckner (the revised 1992 version) couldn't accept that the sketches that were then published of the Ninth's finale could built the momentum necessary for a true Bruckner finale. However, had he lived to hear this version, I think he would have accepted it because what he wrote about the finale of the Eighth applies even more accurately to this completion: 'The Finale is, for all its splendour, the calmest part of the Symphony. It is the cathedral that the architect had been trying, through all the world's distractions, to find in the mind's eye. One by one the impediments have been removed, until the image is clearly reveled. It can now be contemplated, sometimes with quiet absorption, sometimes with a sense of exhilaration, and once* recalling past despair. Again we must not expect such a finale to develop speed: its movement is vast and slow, and its active periods do not affect the deep pulse that forms its life.' (* perhaps in the case of the Ninth's finale 'often').

This is not to say of course that what we have is perfect; if Bruckner had finished it fully (or perhaps if his completed score had survived, if you believe that he had in fact finished it), we would find it to be much more wonderful that what we have now (in the same way that if Mahler had orchestrated the tenth it would be incomparably more wonderful than any of the orchestrated versions). But it's better to have this than not.

One thing that saddens me, though, is that Bruckner would easily have been able to finish the Ninth if he hadn't been sidetracked into the pointless revisions of the earlier symphonies he undertook in the late 1880s and early 1890s.

Yes, the completion sounds convincing  to me also, and if the commentary by the musicologists involved is not exaggerated, their methods for deducing the missing sections from either Bruckner's style in earlier symphonies, or from the earlier movements of the Ninth, seem logical.

I have read articles by some musicologists claiming that Bruckner's rooms were invaded by trophy seekers after his death, that "chaos reigned," and quite possibly pages of a completed short score of the Ninth's last movement were taken.

[amw]

Re: the Bruckner scherzos: it's obvious from symphonies 0-3  that Bruckner had the pattern and language down pat..

Ah, I didn't know that. Only heard 3 of that lot.

Then, in symphonies 6 and 7 he returns to the tried and tested peasant-hunting brueghelian form he had devised in 1-4. In symphonies 8 and 9 he veered ooff that model.

One thing I definitely like about the Bruckner scherzos is that, despite their 'formula', they all manage to be completely different. 5 as you say is the most exceptional, with strands of a Ländler and an Ecossaise intercutting this violent hard-driven music, but 6 is all shadowy and mysterious with a trio of great nobility, 7 is a sort of Wild Hunt, 8 pairs this plodding, earthbound German dance type with an ethereal, celestial trio, 9 is just pure demonic ferocity with a trio of half-lit faerie music. I don't remember 3 right now but I think it's closest to 7.

Current listening is 5 with Dohnányi, definitely the best of the four versions I've heard so far as regards clarity, articulation, tempi, and general Klang (I can't really judge sound quality, I have a pair of cheap usb speakers someone gifted to me, I mean it's good quality fwiw)

edit: Dohnányi Bruckner 5 finished. I don't know what makes it stand out tbh, on a technical level it's about the same as Barenboim (though tempi are more to my liking). But overall... idk, that was just one of the best performances, of anything, ever. Have to apologise to my flatmates now, it's almost 1 am and that was loud :<

[Cato]

Current listening is 5 with Dohnányi, definitely the best of the four versions I've heard so far as regards clarity, articulation, tempi, and general Klang (I can't really judge sound quality, I have a pair of cheap usb speakers someone gifted to me, I mean it's good quality fwiw)

edit: Dohnányi Bruckner 5 finished. I don't know what makes it stand out tbh, on a technical level it's about the same as Barenboim (though tempi are more to my liking). But overall... idk, that was just one of the best performances, of anything, ever. Have to apologise to my flatmates now, it's almost 1 am and that was loud :<

Never apologize for playing Bruckner, even at 1 A.M. !   

I had the opportunity to hear Dohnanyi conduct the Cleveland Orchestra in Bruckner's Fifth,
and it was a marvel of power and clarity and emotion!  Standing ovation at the end!

[Karl Henning]

Never apologize for playing Bruckner, even at 1 A.M. !   

I know I need never apologize for that!  (The artists in my life are still up doing their work at that hour, so as long as I don't have the volume cranked up . . . .)

[Sergeant Rock]

Re: the Bruckner scherzos: it's obvious from symphonies 0-3  that Bruckner had the pattern and language down pat..

Yes, and even in the "Study Symphony" the Bruckner Scherzo was already born if not yet mature.

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

edit: Dohnányi Bruckner 5 finished. I don't know what makes it stand out tbh, on a technical level it's about the same as Barenboim (though tempi are more to my liking). But overall... idk, that was just one of the best performances, of anything, ever. Have to apologise to my flatmates now, it's almost 1 am and that was loud :<

My favorite B5...the speed, the drama actually changed the way I thought Bruckner should be interpreted.

Have to apologise to my flatmates now, it's almost 1 am and that was loud :<

The only time I've had complaints from a neighbor was when I was listening to Bruckner. Bruckner is the only composer Mrs. Rock forbids me from playing after she goes to bed. There's just something about his music that penetrates thick walls 

Sarge

[MishaK]

Yes, the completion sounds convincing  to me also, and if the commentary by the musicologists involved is not exaggerated, their methods for deducing the missing sections from either Bruckner's style in earlier symphonies, or from the earlier movements of the Ninth, seem logical.

I have read articles by some musicologists claiming that Bruckner's rooms were invaded by trophy seekers after his death, that "chaos reigned," and quite possibly pages of a completed short score of the Ninth's last movement were taken.

As I have said before in this thread, for anyone wanting to understand the issues surrounding the finale of the 9th, you really ought to get hold of the Harnoncourt/Vienna recording. It contains a second disc with a lecture/demonstration by Harnoncourt (in both German and English - two separate tracks) in which he plays all of the surviving original sections of the finale, including what what was orchestrated fully and what wasn't. This will clarify to you exactly what is original Bruckner and what was extrapolated by the musicologists in the completion. Harnoncourt also addresses the chaos at Bruckner's death and the potential that more fragments could be found. Indeed, if you listen to the evolution of the Corhs/Mazucca/Samale completion over the years (I believe the first version was recorded by Yoav Talmi in the 80s) you will see that the completion has incorporated more and more original Bruckner fragments and has over the years evolved to sound more and more like 'real' Bruckner and less and less like other people's work. Also worth listening to as an alternative conception is the recent completion by Carragan, which was recorded by Gerd Schaller on Profil with his Sinfonia Festiva or whatever it's called. A superb performance as well.

[amw]

I had the opportunity to hear Dohnanyi conduct the Cleveland Orchestra in Bruckner's Fifth,
and it was a marvel of power and clarity and emotion!  Standing ovation at the end!

Right? He's got the Magic Touch. I'm normally a huge admirer of Dohnányi, a 'the score, the whole score and nothing but the score' type of conductor, so I was disappointed that I didn't relate as much to his 6th and 8th; but that might just be because I like this score better, lol.

[Cato]

As I have said before in this thread, for anyone wanting to understand the issues surrounding the finale of the 9th, you really ought to get hold of the Harnoncourt/Vienna recording. It contains a second disc with a lecture/demonstration by Harnoncourt (in both German and English - two separate tracks) in which he plays all of the surviving original sections of the finale, including what what was orchestrated fully and what wasn't. This will clarify to you exactly what is original Bruckner and what was extrapolated by the musicologists in the completion. Harnoncourt also addresses the chaos at Bruckner's death and the potential that more fragments could be found.

Yes, let me recommend that set as well!  Who knows how  many of those "trophy" pages might show up, or how many were destroyed in WW II?

I did not know that Carragan had a newer completion: many thanks for the information!

[MishaK]

I did not know that Carragan had a newer completion: many thanks for the information!

It's a different completion entirely:

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=594726

The latest Samale/Cohs/Philips/Mazzucca that Rattle recorded is actually a more recent completion (2012 vs. 2010 for the Carragan). See: http://www.abruckner.com/discography/symphonyno9indmino/

Of the recordings of the S/C/P/M finale completion, I can confidently say that Rattle's version is the most convincing by a long shot, both in terms of the playing and the improvements of the completion over the years. I have listened to the earlier recordings by Talmi, Wildner, Bosch and Harding and they don't measure up. Especially the Talmi recording has an earlier completion that was made before other original fragments were unearthed, so it sounds a lot less like Bruckner and has some hideously Hollywood-ish turns in the orchestration.

[merlin]

Hi everyone.  I am new to the forum (posted an Introduction).  I have only recently "discovered" Bruckner, and am intensely involved in learning and listening to his symphonies.  I already have several versions of each, and many of the 8th.

As part of my education, I have read through most of this thread -- very interesting and informative.

I just listened to Jochum's 5th, recorded 4 December 1986, and wonder if anyone else has, and might offer comments and feedback?  The interpretation seems deeper and more moving, especially the adagio, than the one recorded at Ottobeuren Abbey 22+ years earlier.  The brass in that one, whilst exciting, is often shrill and overpowering.

In the 1986 recording, the sonics are more balanced, with superb SQ, although the brass still definitely shines through.  It also is a bit slower.

[Cato]

Hi everyone.  I am new to the forum (posted an Introduction).  I have only recently "discovered" Bruckner, and am intensely involved in learning and listening to his symphonies.  I already have several versions of each, and many of the 8th.

As part of my education, I have read through most of this thread -- very interesting and informative.

I just listened to Jochum's 5th, recorded 4 December 1986, and wonder if anyone else has, and might offer comments and feedback?  The interpretation seems deeper and more moving, especially the adagio, than the one recorded at Ottobeuren Abbey 22+ years earlier.  The brass in that one, whilst exciting, is often shrill and overpowering.

In the 1986 recording, the sonics are more balanced, with superb SQ, although the brass still definitely shines through.  It also is a bit slower.

The DGG recording with the Bavarian Radio Orchestra is also excellent: however, for this one (I will not claim to have heard every Jochum version available) Jochum nearly halves the speed for the final minutes, something not indicated in the score.

Does it work?  After nearly 50 years of listening to this version, I have still not decided!  There are times when I think it works quite well: yet it nags me that the score is being second-guessed to such an extent.  Slowing down the tempo - or speeding it up! - somewhat for the grand conclusion can be warranted within limits. 

Still, like I said, at times I find it an excellent way to handle the finale.  Maybe it depends on the weather!   

[merlin]

Thanks for commenting, Cato -- much appreciated!  I have Jochum's DG box on order, and will definitely do some comparative listening.

The other version of B5 I have auditioned is Celibidache/MPO -- VERY different, but for me, quite engaging.

[merlin]

Here is a timing comparison of Jochum's 5th with the SD and the one I cite above:

EMI: 21'26" - 19'16" - 13'04" - 23'42"
Tahra: 22'13" - 20'43" - 13'54" - 25'40"

So perhaps the slowing down before the finale in this version is not as jarring as in the others, but fits into the overall conception and performance.

In any event, this is definitely a grand performance at all levels. 

[Cato]

Here is a timing comparison of Jochum's 5th with the SD and the one I cite above:

EMI: 21'26" - 19'16" - 13'04" - 23'42"
Tahra: 22'13" - 20'43" - 13'54" - 25'40"

So perhaps the slowing down before the finale in this version is not as jarring as in the others, but fits into the overall conception and performance.

In any event, this is definitely a grand performance at all levels.

Many thanks: interesting that he slowed things down even more in the 1980's!

Let us know your reaction to the classic DGG set of Jochum conducting all 9 symphonies: keep in mind that he uses the Nowak edition of the scores for that one.