Bruckner's Abbey

[AnotherSpin]

What does it need to be relevant to? Conrad Veidt Fan is a new member. Welcome CVF!

I don't quite understand your difficulty. Someone comes to a thread about Bruckner and declares his love for someone and quotes a not very favourable phrase from that someone about Bruckner. Don't you wonder what that means?

[Daverz]

I love Dr. John McWhorter (Columbia) and his description of the music of Bruckner:  "a dense, grandiloquent crawl"!

McWhorter is a clown, has been for decades. 

[Brian]

I don't quite understand your difficulty. Someone comes to a thread about Bruckner and declares his love for someone and quotes a not very favourable phrase from that someone about Bruckner. Don't you wonder what that means?

Although I do not like or respect McWhorter*, I also do not see the phrase as necessarily insulting!

*a linguistics professor who is also outspoken about his belief that black people in the US are largely to blame for their own lower economic status because they "play victims" rather than adapting to white culture

[DavidW]

What does it need to be relevant to? Conrad Veidt Fan is a new member. Welcome CVF!

@Conrad Veidt fan is the poster that recommended that amazing K. Petrenko Tchaikovsky 6 that I now love! He posts something extraordinary, refuses to elaborate, and then leaves.

[AnotherSpin]

Although I do not like or respect McWhorter*, I also do not see the phrase as necessarily insulting!

*a linguistics professor who is also outspoken about his belief that black people in the US are largely to blame for their own lower economic status because they "play victims" rather than adapting to white culture

I didn't find that phrase insulting, rather plain silly.

[Roasted Swan]

To redress the balance, one of the outstanding experiences of my concert-going career (spanning many decades) was a recent performance of the 9th by the Philharmonia Orchestra conducted by Manfred Honeck.  It was like hearing it again for the very first time - I was on the edge of my seat throughout.  Just wonderful.

My sense is that Honeck is one of the most interesting convention challenging conductors around with the technique and musical intelligence to back it up.

[Conrad Veidt fan]

@Conrad Veidt fan is the poster that recommended that amazing K. Petrenko Tchaikovsky 6 that I now love! He posts something extraordinary, refuses to elaborate, and then leaves.

I'll contribute when I have something further to offer.  I see that people have taken offence with Dr. McWhorter himself rather than his comments.  He's a very bright Linguist from Columbia University whose other speciality is music.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

I see that people have taken offence with Dr. McWhorter himself rather than his comments.  He's a very bright Linguist from Columbia University whose other speciality is music.

His linguistic work is solid, from what I've read. Dunno what it has to do with Bruckner though.

Speaking of whom, the following concert is coming up, Aug. 2 and 3:

Grant Park Orchestra
Carlos Kalmar, conductor

Program
Jean Sibelius: The Swan of Tuonela
Leoš Janáček/arr. Vaclav Talich: Suite from The Cunning Little Vixen
Anton Bruckner: Symphony No. 4, Romantic

I haven't been to the Grant Park concerts since pre-Covid. Looking forward to this one!

[AnotherSpin]

I'll contribute when I have something further to offer.  I see that people have taken offence with Dr. McWhorter himself rather than his comments.  He's a very bright Linguist from Columbia University whose other speciality is music.

I've never heard of this Dr. McWhorter. That's why I asked why his remark (in my opinion dubious) was brought to attention here.

[Atriod]

My sense is that Honeck is one of the most interesting convention challenging conductors around with the technique and musical intelligence to back it up.

What I was quite surprised by is that reading between the lines of Hurwitz's Honeck Bruckner 7 review it seemed like it was an even more moving performance than Haitink's 1978 recording. I can't wait to carve out the time to give it a dedicated doing nothing else listen.

[Cato]

Speaking of whom, the following concert is coming up, Aug. 2 and 3:

Grant Park Orchestra
Carlos Kalmar, conductor

Program
Jean Sibelius: The Swan of Tuonela
Leoš Janáček/arr. Vaclav Talich: Suite from The Cunning Little Vixen
Anton Bruckner: Symphony No. 4, Romantic

I haven't been to the Grant Park concerts since pre-Covid. Looking forward to this one!

Excellent program!

What I was quite surprised by is that reading between the lines of Hurwitz's Honeck Bruckner 7 review it seemed like it was an even more moving performance than Haitink's 1978 recording. I can't wait to carve out the time to give it a dedicated doing nothing else listen.

We will add that to the list of things to hear ASAP!   

[André]

Cross posted from the WAYL thread:

Today at 07:47:58 PM


This concert performance hails from St-Florian Basilica, June 1982. The sound is excellent. Microphones were probably closer to the players than what appears to be the case in the Ballot set, also recorded in St-Florian (big, spacious but hugely reverberant). 
A later performance (September '82) with the same forces in Tokyo has been issued on the Altus label. The Tokyo performance is excellent but seems at least one size smaller than the St-Florian one. Was jet lag a factor in the tamer response of the Bambergers and Jochum in Tokyo ? From the very beginning in the St-Florian performance execution is sharper, the conducting more fired up and the conception much more dramatic. The timpani throughout pound and rage (literally), showing a degree of involvement that clearly has its source on the podium. The huge release at the end of the mighty coda is cunningly held up for maximum effect.
This version is one of a trio of performances I'd keep for the desert island. It used to be available as a free download on the Abruckner.com web site

[Cato]

Cross posted from the WAYL thread:

Today at 07:47:58 PM


This concert performance hails from St-Florian Basilica, June 1982. The sound is excellent. Microphones were probably closer to the players than what appears to be the case in the Ballot set, also recorded in St-Florian (big, spacious but hugely reverberant).
A later performance (September '82) with the same forces in Tokyo has been issued on the Altus label. ...

...From the very beginning in the St-Florian performance execution is sharper, the conducting more fired up and the conception much more dramatic. The timpani throughout pound and rage (literally), showing a degree of involvement that clearly has its source on the podium. The huge release at the end of the mighty coda is cunningly held up for maximum effect.

This version is one of a trio of performances I'd keep for the desert island. It used to be available as a free download on the Abruckner.com web site

Here is the specific page at the Anton Bruckner website for the performance above:


https://www.abruckner.com/downloads/downloadofthemonth/august09/

[Cato]

Manfred Honeck says he has made a discovery about the Symphony #7:

Honeck writes his own extensive liner notes for his CDs and in the latest Pittsburgh release – Bruckner's Seventh Symphony – he cites a particular new discovery. "Why, in the first movement, does Bruckner wait nearly 20 minutes [bar 391] to introduce the timpani?" he asks me.

"There have been other moments where he could use it, but... no timpani. For a long time I did not understand, and then I suddenly got it: he refers to the liturgy. Bruckner went to Mass every day, of which the central part is the Eucharist, and at the moment the timpani starts, he writes "sehr feierlich" – very celebratory, very solemn – so it has a special meaning for him. 

There is a crescendo for 12 bars and a diminuendo of 11 bars which is where the priest on the altar holds the bread and wine up and down and then, four bars before the timpani comes in, there is a diminuendo, which describes the moment when the congregation gets down on their knees. Someone who recently bought the CD said to me, 'Manfred, I now hear this moment completely differently' and that's the point when I believe it's worth the effort to write the notes. But they are only my suggestions; somebody else can see it completely differently. There are many routes to the same destination!" 

See:


https://bachtrack.com/interview-manfred-honeck-bruckner-pittsburgh-symphony-august-2024

[Daverz]

This year's West Coast Brucknerthon playlist:

- Symphony in F-minor: Poschner/Bruckner Orchestra Linz (Capriccio CD, 2022)
- Symphony No. 1 (1877): Young/Hamburg Philharmonic Orchestra (Oehms SACD, 2010)
- Symphony in D-minor: Nelsons/Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra (DG CD, 2020)
- Symphony No. 2 (1872): Eichhorn/Bruckner Orchestra Linz (Camerata CD, 1991)
- Symphony No. 3 (1877): Kubelik/Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra (Audite CD, 1970)
- Symphony No. 4 (1881): Blomstedt/Staatskapelle Dresden (Denon CD, 1981)
- Symphony No. 5: Jochum/Concertgebouw Orchestra (RCO Live CD, 1986)
- Symphony No. 6: Leitner/SWF Symphony Orchestra (Hänssler Classic CD, 1982)
- Symphony No. 7: Ozawa/Saito Kinen Orchestra (Decca CD, 2003)
- Symphony No. 8 (Haas): TO BE ANNOUNCED!!!
- Symphony No. 9: Naito/Tokyo New City Orchestra (Delta CD, 2006)

https://www.abruckner.com/editorsnote/news/west-coast-brucknerthon-announced-august-31st-in-s/

[foxandpeng]

Who is Dr. John McWhorter and why is his statement relevant?

I've never heard of him either, but to be fair, I've probably never heard of you guys either - but I still enjoy reading and evaluating your opinions, whether they lavish praise, express indifference, or pour scorn.

"A dense, grandiloquent crawl" ... agree or disagree, I thought it was interesting.

[AnotherSpin]

I've never heard of him either, but to be fair, I've probably never heard of you guys either - but I still enjoy reading and evaluating your opinions, whether they lavish praise, express indifference, or pour scorn.

"A dense, grandiloquent crawl" ... agree or disagree, I thought it was interesting.

Well, on this forum, only Todd can be considered an authority worth quoting; the other participants just mention each other... 

[foxandpeng]

Well, on this forum, only Todd can be considered an authority worth quoting; the other participants just mention each other... 

That did make me laugh, my friend 😁

[LKB]

"A dense, grandiloquent crawl"...

Even as I wince while reading that, I must admit that there are occasional Brucknerian passages which might merit the description.

Of course, certain passages in The Lord of the Rings might also be represented with the phrase, and that work suffers nothing by that being the case. ( I usually tell classical fans approaching Bruckner for the first time that a Bruckner Symphony is like the Tolkien epic, with extra walking. )

[AnotherSpin]

"A dense, grandiloquent crawl"...

Even as I wince while reading that, I must admit that there are occasional Brucknerian passages which might merit the description.

Of course, certain passages in The Lord of the Rings might also be represented with the phrase, and that work suffers nothing by that being the case. ( I usually tell classical fans approaching Bruckner for the first time that a Bruckner Symphony is like the Tolkien epic, with extra walking. )

I don't want to repeat what I've already said, but anyway. Those who haven't understood Bruckner love to repeat the cliché about his long-windedness. Those who have entered Bruckner's magical world want even more, want length, and power, and bliss, and eternity.