Author Topic: Bruckner's Abbey  (Read 493447 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Heather Harrison

  • Guest
Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #80 on: June 10, 2007, 03:07:24 PM »
I just finished listening to the Third.  To me, it seems more like the Second than the First, but compared to the Second, I get more of a sense of grandeur.  I especially notice this in the finale; there are passages of Wagnerian grandeur interspersed with lovely lyrical sections.  (I understand that this one was dedicated to Wagner, and that earlier versions contained quotes from his music.)  The slow movement seems to run through a great range of emotions, evoking grandeur, darkness, despair, and triumph at various moments.  Like the Second, this one has a great deal going on, and it will likely require several hearings to bring out all of the details.

Heather

Offline Lethevich

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 9748
  • I spilled my drink!
  • Currently Listening to:
    Rihm, Bialas, Ballif, Schumann, Schubert
Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #81 on: June 10, 2007, 03:29:15 PM »
It's neat to hear comments about someone not already fully familiar with his syms, I'm reading your updates with interest.
Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.

Bonehelm

  • Guest
Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #82 on: June 10, 2007, 04:59:28 PM »
I am listening to Wand with the BPO right now. So much more compelling. Throbbing with life and such rich textures. Far better attention to dynamic range, too.

Yeah, Mensch. I love Wand and his Bruckner. I love it a lot more than Karajan...gotta try his Mahler sometime.

Offline Bogey

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 13492
  • Location: Colorado
Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #83 on: June 10, 2007, 06:19:43 PM »
I need my first recording of the 9th and am not sure what to go with, while not going the box set route.  Start dropping me some "pearls" please....Whoo-ah!  ;)
There will never be another era like the Golden Age of Hollywood.  We didn't know how to blow up buildings then so we had no choice but to tell great stories with great characters.-Ben Mankiewicz

Offline beclemund

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 524
Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #84 on: June 10, 2007, 07:12:29 PM »
I need my first recording of the 9th and am not sure what to go with, while not going the box set route.  Start dropping me some "pearls" please....Whoo-ah!  ;)

Another GMG'er posted a favorable review of Skrowaczewski's 9th on the Listening thread. My favorite 9th is Giulini's:



Jochum's Dresden 9th is also reviewed favorably and available on a budget two-fer with the 8th.

Hopefully, I will be able to make an appraisal of Celibidache's Munich 9th in a few days.   :)

"A guilty conscience needs to confess. A work of art is a confession." -- Albert Camus

Offline Lethevich

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 9748
  • I spilled my drink!
  • Currently Listening to:
    Rihm, Bialas, Ballif, Schumann, Schubert
Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #85 on: June 10, 2007, 07:18:17 PM »
I need my first recording of the 9th and am not sure what to go with, while not going the box set route.  Start dropping me some "pearls" please....Whoo-ah!  ;)

I'm never sure whether to recommend historic recordings for a first time, but given how excellent this is, and it being a budget disc, it is a good choice:



Coupled with the Te Deum (on one disc). Bruno Walter, Columbia Symphony Orchestra, Sony Masterworks. I'm sure an American store would have it for cheaper.
Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.

Offline Dancing Divertimentian

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 5981
  • Posts: who's counting?
  • Currently Listening to:
    probably something somebody somewhere is snickering at...wait, Schoenberg! Definitely Schoenberg! (And, let's see, does he have a disciple or two...)...
Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #86 on: June 10, 2007, 07:30:16 PM »
I need my first recording of the 9th and am not sure what to go with, while not going the box set route.  Start dropping me some "pearls" please....Whoo-ah!  ;)

If it's a 'pearl' you're after, Bogey, here's the capstone of Bruckner 9th's, in glorious technicolor sound:





Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Offline Daverz

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 5996
  • You can't fool me, it's turtles all the way down!
Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #87 on: June 10, 2007, 08:44:41 PM »
I'm never sure whether to recommend historic recordings for a first time, but given how excellent this is, and it being a budget disc, it is a good choice:
Coupled with the Te Deum (on one disc). Bruno Walter, Columbia Symphony Orchestra, Sony Masterworks. I'm sure an American store would have it for cheaper.

Oh, no, the Walter is historic now  :o  ;)

I love this recording.  Here's the latest remastering:


Bonehelm

  • Guest
Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #88 on: June 10, 2007, 09:08:11 PM »
If it's a 'pearl' you're after, Bogey, here's the capstone of Bruckner 9th's, in glorious technicolor sound:







What the blue hell...Handel and Bruckner both in one package?  ???

Offline Lethevich

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 9748
  • I spilled my drink!
  • Currently Listening to:
    Rihm, Bialas, Ballif, Schumann, Schubert
Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #89 on: June 10, 2007, 09:24:47 PM »
What the blue hell...Handel and Bruckner both in one package?  ???

I've been meaning to buy this disc for ages due to many excellent reviews, I'm glad I got reminded of it. Apparently the Handel was played to be as deliberately Bruckner-sounding as possible, and works very successfully as a coupling.
Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.

Online Sergeant Rock

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 22463
  • Location: Wine Country Germany
Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #90 on: June 11, 2007, 03:16:43 AM »
Oh, no, the Walter is historic now  :o  ;)


Damn...you know what that means, Dave: It means you and I are now historic too.  :(

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Online Sergeant Rock

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 22463
  • Location: Wine Country Germany
Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #91 on: June 11, 2007, 03:35:21 AM »
My favorite 9th is Giulini's:



Jochum's Dresden 9th is also reviewed favorably and available on a budget two-fer with the 8th.

Hey, Bogey. I concur completely with beclemund's recommendations. Giulini is my favorite too, and Jochum, a very different reading, is intensely dramatic and blistering. Haitink/Concertgebouw is also excellent, with a very broad first movement, just the way I like it. Barenboim's Berlin 9th (available separately from the box, I think) is probably the best thing in his cycle...which means it's very good indeed. Many swear by Furtwängler, and I understand why, but he rushes climactic moments; excting, yes, but at some loss of Brucknerian majesty and grandeur. I haven't heard Donwyn's Kubelik...I'd like to.

Have you heard the Eighth yet? If not, I guess my first recommendation would be this one. For the price, $7.25 new, it can't be beat.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Offline Bogey

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 13492
  • Location: Colorado
Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #92 on: June 11, 2007, 03:48:23 AM »
Continued thanks folks, I will try to sample all....out of the recs. which would you consider to be the slowest/darkest(?) reading?
There will never be another era like the Golden Age of Hollywood.  We didn't know how to blow up buildings then so we had no choice but to tell great stories with great characters.-Ben Mankiewicz

Lilas Pastia

  • Guest
Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #93 on: June 11, 2007, 04:12:37 AM »
Heather, your assessment is excellent. This is a compact (for Bruckner) yet full-blown symphonic statement. The scherzo is indeed the work's most striking movement, a harbinger of other brucknerian scherzos to come (0, 2, 3, 6 and 7 also have the same kind of punchy peasant dance model). Note also the Tannhauser quasi-quotations at the beginning of the Finale. That particular movement seals the work in a grand, confident, almost exuberant way.

I concur with Beclemund: don't go for a second set, it's much too restrictive in terms of interpretational points of view and also brucknerian orchestral culture (a major point often insufficiently appreciated). As for specific interpretations for individual symphonies, you'll get recommendations aplenty.

Offline edward

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3758
  • Hello, little man. I will destroy you.
Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #94 on: June 11, 2007, 04:18:10 AM »
For 9ths, a combination of Walter and Furtwangler is both cheap and covers both poles of Bruckner interpretation in superb performances.

I have yet to hear either Giulini or Kubelik, however, so I believe I may have a treat in store for me. ;)
"I don't at all mind actively disliking a piece of contemporary music, but in order to feel happy about it I must consciously understand why I dislike it. Otherwise it remains in my mind as unfinished business."
 -- Aaron Copland, The Pleasures of Music

Online Sergeant Rock

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 22463
  • Location: Wine Country Germany
Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #95 on: June 11, 2007, 04:43:50 AM »
Continued thanks folks, I will try to sample all....out of the recs. which would you consider to be the slowest/darkest(?) reading?

Of the recordings I own on CD (have several more on LP), Giulini is definitely the slowest. But Jochum's tempos don't prevent his from being dark, very dark indeed. But you can see they stand at opposite interpretive extremes, at least in regards tempo. Giulini takes 35 seconds longer to reach that first, apocalyptic climax in the first movement. Jochum sounds like he's ignored Bruckner's misterioso marking (not that misterioso means slow but in practice it comes out that way).

Giulini         28:02   10:39   29:30
Klemperer    26:43   11:23   27:12
Barenboim   25:30   10:41    27:17   
Haitink        25:11   10:51   26:28
Abendroth    23:24    8:58    21:34
Jochum        23:06    9:49    27:39

Sarge
« Last Edit: June 11, 2007, 04:46:31 AM by Sergeant Rock »
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Offline Que

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 17814
  • Location: The Hague, Netherlands
Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #96 on: June 11, 2007, 04:49:11 AM »
Of the recordings I own on CD (have several more on LP), Giulini is definitely the slowest.

Giulini is the slowest in anything. :)

Q

Online Sergeant Rock

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 22463
  • Location: Wine Country Germany
Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #97 on: June 11, 2007, 05:04:18 AM »
I understand that this one was dedicated to Wagner, and that earlier versions contained quotes from his music.

Yes, the first version, the version Wagner saw when Bruckner asked permission to dedicate the symphony to him, has blatant quotes. If you're familiar with Wagner, they're easy to spot. Lots of fun. As originally written, the Third is actually Bruckner's longest symphony too.

The Third was my first Bruckner, recommended by a friend. It's still my sentimental favorite despite its flaws. Hearing it live even inspired me to wrote a poem:


THE D MINOR, THIRD VERSION, NOWAK

for David "Pete" Petersen

Conducting the Cleveland, Aldo Ceccato, baton
like a sword, was charging his way through the finale
of Bruckner's symphonic cathedral to Wagner
like it was the gallop from Rossini's Tell

(Latin temperament irrepressible, allowing
no monumental peasant piety nor Ländler lope)
when I noticed the afro among the three thousand
palefaces in attendance at Severance:

as the coda approached, that majestic moment
when trumpet theme returns for a major recycling,
the white woman beside him tapped his shoulder,
alerting. He tensed forward, straining to hear,

fanfares rallentando and. . .wholly Hallelujah!!!
Cleveland explodes!
braying horns, tuba and trombones erupting,
trumpets machine-gunning triplets.

I was showered in brass shrapnel, fifths,
goose bumps; a silly grin spreading. And
black and white
beamed enormously at each other

as he shook his head yes! O yes! up and down,
up and down, yes! and yes! And yes,
I thought amazed, this ain't Miles or Marvin,
stereotypes burning away in Brucknerian blaze.

Yes. . .make color and culture irrelevant,
build your Gothic structure of sound,
hurl your themes toward heaven like spires
and stride, augmented, through the macrocosm, Anton: sainted!

And let your majors and minors linger in my mind…


Sarge
« Last Edit: June 11, 2007, 05:10:32 AM by Sergeant Rock »
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Offline Novi

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1206
Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #98 on: June 11, 2007, 05:10:20 AM »
Of the recordings I own on CD (have several more on LP), Giulini is definitely the slowest. But Jochum's tempos don't prevent his from being dark, very dark indeed. But you can see they stand at opposite interpretive extremes, at least in regards tempo. Giulini takes 35 seconds longer to reach that first, apocalyptic climax in the first movement. Jochum sounds like he's ignored Bruckner's misterioso marking (not that misterioso means slow but in practice it comes out that way).

Giulini's tempo works really well in the 9th imo. For me, the third movement becomes almost unbearably devastating and intense almost to breaking point.

I also like Furtwangler 1944 BPO for a more rugged and urgent account.
Timings for this are:
   23'41     9'35     25'38

Durch alle Töne tönet
Im bunten Erdentraum
Ein leiser Ton gezogen
Für den der heimlich lauschet.

Online Sergeant Rock

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 22463
  • Location: Wine Country Germany
Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #99 on: June 11, 2007, 05:12:02 AM »
Giulini's tempo works really well in the 9th imo. For me, the third movement becomes almost unbearably devastating and intense almost to breaking point.

I also like Furtwangler 1944 BPO for a more rugged and urgent account.
Timings for this are:
   23'41     9'35     25'38

Thanks for the times. I own that on LP and the times aren't included on the sleeve or the record.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"