Bruckner's Abbey

[Brahmsian]

Maybe a dumb question, but can't find a specific answer...

Are these all the same recording?

For a split second, I thought that was a profile of Freddy Krueger. 

[jlaurson]

Maybe a dumb question, but can't find a specific answer...

Are these all the same recording?







Thanks in advance for any comments

Yes, they are. (Incidentally my least favorite 5th... and if I correctly remember the only one of Bb's cycle [good 1st and superb 9th, I admit] that even Sarge doesn't find 100% defensible. Or I misremember, and he thinks it's one of the finest 5th.)

[TheGSMoeller]

Yes, they are. (Incidentally my least favorite 5th... and if I correctly remember the only one of Bb's cycle [good 1st and superb 9th, I admit] that even Sarge doesn't find 100% defensible. Or I misremember, and he thinks it's one of the finest 5th.)

Thank you! What is your favorite 5th recording?

[Sergeant Rock]

Yes, they are. (Incidentally my least favorite 5th... and if I correctly remember the only one of Bb's cycle [good 1st and superb 9th, I admit] that even Sarge doesn't find 100% defensible. Or I misremember, and he thinks it's one of the finest 5th.)

Both are correct. I acknowledge faults in the sound. You're right about that. And it is one of my favorite Fifths although not one I generally recommend because it's mannered with Furtwänglerian quirks that will disturb some people. My top three: Celibidache for the epic approach; Dohnányi/Cleveland and Welser-Möst/LPO for the swift and dramatic.

Sarge

[TheGSMoeller]

Both are correct. I acknowledge faults in the sound. You're right about that. And it is one of my favorite Fifths although not one I generally recommend because it's mannered with Furtwänglerian quirks that will disturb some people. My top three: Celibidache for the epic approach; Dohnányi/Cleveland and Welser-Möst/LPO for the swift and dramatic.

Sarge

I like the Barenboim, not as a first choice, but the power of the finale is undeniable. The Dohnányi/Cleveland has always been a favorite of mine, such a clean and well-balanced sound, in fact I've always appreciated that from most of the Dohnányi/Cleveland recordings (their Ives 4th is a desert island pic) . I really want to checkout Celibidache, but can't find a copy that is not too pricey.

[Sergeant Rock]

I like the Barenboim, not as a first choice, but the power of the finale is undeniable.

My feelings exactly.

Sarge

[karlhenning]

. . . not one I generally recommend because it's mannered with Furtwänglerian quirks that will disturb some people.

I still get twitches late at night, sometimes, recalling an Eroica conducted by the Furtster . . . .

[Sergeant Rock]

I still get twitches late at night, sometimes, recalling an Eroica conducted by the Furtster . . . .

Yeah, it's hard to eradicate it once heard...medical science has not found a cure.

Sarge

[jlaurson]

Thank you! What is your favorite 5th recording?

My favorite Fifth is -- like Sarge (we mostly agree, anyway) -- that of Celibidache (Munich). Slow-burn in perfection. http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/05/bruckner-divine-and-beautiful.html

Thielemann is a similar, excellent, but ultimately lesser version: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/04/slow-food-for-ears-bruckners-5th-with.html

Wand's Cologne Fifth is VERY different but also very good. Ditto Jochum / BRSO in the DG box set, though the sound isn't top-notch.

[TheGSMoeller]

My favorite Fifth is -- like Sarge (we mostly agree, anyway) -- that of Celibidache (Munich). Slow-burn in perfection. http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/05/bruckner-divine-and-beautiful.html

Thielemann is a similar, excellent, but ultimately lesser version: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/04/slow-food-for-ears-bruckners-5th-with.html

Wand's Cologne Fifth is VERY different but also very good. Ditto Jochum / BRSO in the DG box set, though the sound isn't top-notch.

Great writings, thank you friend!

[Sergeant Rock]

Great writings

I think so too. He's without a doubt my favorite critic...even when I disagree with him, which isn't often. On the downside, he's had a negative impact on my bank balance 

Sarge

[MishaK]

I like the Barenboim, not as a first choice, but the power of the finale is undeniable.

Thirded. I like the second movement, too. Then again, Furtwängler is my favorite 5th. Sinopoli my second choice.

Wand's Cologne Fifth is VERY different but also very good.

Yes, but that one has the scratchiest playing of all of the performances in that Cologne set. Can't really make that one a top choice if looking for single recordings.

[MishaK]

I listened to Wand and Karajan's Thirds yesterday. Wand, the master of symphonic architecture, gives the most seamless account I've ever heard. The transitions are perfectly integrated, making a perfect whole (never thought I'd say that about the imperfect Third!). I

Do you know this one?

[asin]B00000E3VM[/asin]

Epic! Fantastic performance. Leagues above Wand, IMHO.

[Cato]

Celibidache first came to my knowledge years ago, when I was in Germany, through one of his acolytes, an older woman, who informed me that Sergiu was in der Tat the only conductor who deeply understood every note of any score!!!  She then lectured me about Sergiu's application of Zen Buddhism to his conducting, which harangue in the typical fashion of German pedants and fanatics began to sound like a death knell to me.   0:)

I was therefore not a little surprised when his recordings and his name began to spread beyond Bavaria.   

[Sergeant Rock]

Do you know this one?

[asin]B00000E3VM[/asin]

Epic! Fantastic performance. Leagues above Wand, IMHO.

I own it but it's been years since I last listened to it. I prefer both the original and the 1889 versions. My recordings of the 1877 don't get much play.

Sarge

[Lilas Pastia]

I think so too. He's without a doubt my favorite critic...even when I disagree with him, which isn't often. On the downside, he's had a negative impact on my bank balance 

Sarge

My sentiments too (he's indeed a great critic).

Although one is allowed - and, I would figure expected to find its own path in Bruckner appreciation, an informed thread of critical thinking is of great help (same in Wagner and Brahms IMHO, whereas such  'guidance' may prove a hindrance when it comes to Beethoven, Mahler and Verdi - geniuses that defy criticism and shit from a great height on the mere thought of 'criticism').

That being said, I not so respectfully disagree on most B5 choices here . Wand's NDR and Celibidache's Opning Night at the Gasteig (Munich) versions are among the top choices assuredly. But on the same footing I would definitely place the wildly diverging Gielen SWF and Klemperer NPO versions, the Suitner and van Beinum, some distance above and away from most contenders. Many others could be cited on the honor roll, but once one has 3-6 B5 versions of good pedigree, the others are best heard as good car trip fare.  Just kidding: whoever does this gigantic score justice is worthy of anyone's unbridled admiration (insert your own dozen preferred recordings here).

The 5th seems to be the work where the notion of 'Bruckner conducting' comes naught. It is by far his most 'constructed' work, therefore the most estranged from classical-romantic 'empfindung' - where sentiment rules within the sacro-sanct classical form (Schumann and Mendelssohn). Finding the correct pulse for all 4 very different movements - and the correct tempo relationship among them - is a matter of intuition, culture, or osmosis. In other words, it doesn't matter whether it's immensely solemn and slow (Celibidache), gaunt, slow and desolate  (Klemperer), medium-rare  and prodding (Wand NDR) or fast and 'kecht' (Suitner).

'Pulse' is everything. What  prevails is the conductor's ability to guide the listener from first to last note with the unfailing feeling that the work is unfolding before him/her. You can rush a 9th for gothic drama or an 8th for technicolor grandeur, you can slow a 4th for extra juice on the decibel-meter, or a 7th for parsifalesque solemnity, but you can't fake a 5th's inner life. It would annoy no end.

[eyeresist]

The 5th seems to be the work where the notion of 'Bruckner conducting' comes naught. It is by far his most 'constructed' work, therefore the most estranged from classical-romantic 'empfindung' - where sentiment rules within the sacro-sanct classical form (Schumann and Mendelssohn).

I agree with this, hence preferring Wand's placid strength to Karajan's heavy point-making here (K wasn't always needlessly heavy, and I haven't found a way to predict which works he'll perform masterfully and which he'll try to bully into submission).

Wikipedia says the 5th has at various times been subtitled the "Tragic," "Church of Faith," or "Pizzicato". Really the best word would be "classical".

[TheGSMoeller]

My sentiments too (he's indeed a great critic).

Although one is allowed - and, I would figure expected to find its own path in Bruckner appreciation, an informed thread of critical thinking is of great help (same in Wagner and Brahms IMHO, whereas such  'guidance' may prove a hindrance when it comes to Beethoven, Mahler and Verdi - geniuses that defy criticism and shit from a great height on the mere thought of 'criticism').

That being said, I not so respectfully disagree on most B5 choices here . Wand's NDR and Celibidache's Opning Night at the Gasteig (Munich) versions are among the top choices assuredly. But on the same footing I would definitely place the wildly diverging Gielen SWF and Klemperer NPO versions, the Suitner and van Beinum, some distance above and away from most contenders. Many others could be cited on the honor roll, but once one has 3-6 B5 versions of good pedigree, the others are best heard as good car trip fare.  Just kidding: whoever does this gigantic score justice is worthy of anyone's unbridled admiration (insert your own dozen preferred recordings here).

The 5th seems to be the work where the notion of 'Bruckner conducting' comes naught. It is by far his most 'constructed' work, therefore the most estranged from classical-romantic 'empfindung' - where sentiment rules within the sacro-sanct classical form (Schumann and Mendelssohn). Finding the correct pulse for all 4 very different movements - and the correct tempo relationship among them - is a matter of intuition, culture, or osmosis. In other words, it doesn't matter whether it's immensely solemn and slow (Celibidache), gaunt, slow and desolate  (Klemperer), medium-rare  and prodding (Wand NDR) or fast and 'kecht' (Suitner).

'Pulse' is everything. What  prevails is the conductor's ability to guide the listener from first to last note with the unfailing feeling that the work is unfolding before him/her. You can rush a 9th for gothic drama or an 8th for technicolor grandeur, you can slow a 4th for extra juice on the decibel-meter, or a 7th for parsifalesque solemnity, but you can't fake a 5th's inner life. It would annoy no end.

Well said. 

And on that note, earlier today I just ordered...


This will be recording number 4 for me, and even though I am very excited about the Celibidache, I have a feeling I will never want to stop exploring Bruckner's great 5th.

[TheGSMoeller]

http://www.youtube.com/v/8qFQY3Olty0

[Mirror Image]

http://www.youtube.com/v/8qFQY3Olty0

Yes, you've got love that finale to the 8th. Earth-shattering power.