Bruckner's Abbey

[Lilas Pastia]

JWinter, If I'm not  mistaken, this is Wand's second Cologne set. The first was with that city's other orchestra, the Gürzenich.

Is this one of those sets that retail around 20$ ? I bought a few of them at the absurd price of 15$ - all containing 4-8 discs. This must be brand, brand new. It hasn't reached the local Archambault (our Towers here in Quebec).

Re, the 6th: Milos is right, as always  . faves include Bongartz, both Leitners (the Basel performance is very, very different), Keilberth, the Stein and Swoboda. Powerful, rock solid, alternately exultant and peaceful, as befit the work. The 6th is one of Bruckner's most kaleidioscopic confections. Other worthies I like are Haitink (KCOA - the SD on Profil is waiting a hearing on my shelf), Lopez-Cobos, Klemperer (I have a perverse fondness for his zany Amesterdam workout). Jochum is also an excellent interpreter, but to my ears he lacks the last ounce of gruffness in I and IV.

The 6th is one of Bruckner's symphonies that constantly alternates dynamism and songfulness, swagger and tenderness. It doesn't thrive on single-mindedness. Uniformity of approach and polite classicism can kill it gently. Rudeness and crudeness will blow it to shreds. I won't mention the  non meritorious, but you can insert most others here.

Long, long time I haven't brucknerized. Right now I'm mahlerizing, having embarked on a comparative listening of the 9th. 14 down, 4-5 more to go. Wonderful experience.

[Sergeant Rock]

JWinter, If I'm not  mistaken, this is Wand's second Cologne set. The first was with that city's other orchestra, the Gürzenich.

I'm 99.9% certain he never recorded the cycle with the Gürzenich. This Kölner RSO is Wand's only complete cycle.


Sarge

[MishaK]

I'm 99.9% certain he never recorded the cycle with the Gürzenich. This Kölner RSO is Wand's only complete cycle.

Correct. Although there is apparently a '71 bootleg of an 8th with the Gürzenich, Wand never made any commercial recordings of Bruckner with them, though he was their music director (and along with that, of the Cologne Opera as well). BTW, that first review on the amazon page is by yours truly.

[Lilas Pastia]

You're both right. I was indeed mistaken. Wand made near-cycles in Hamburg and Berlin, and many recordings with the Gürzenich, but no commercial Bruckner recordings with that orchestra.

[jlaurson]

I'm 99.9% certain he never recorded the cycle with the Gürzenich. This Kölner RSO is Wand's only complete cycle.
Sarge

And of course you would be correct, too.

Wand (established on some other thread; anyone care to dig it out?) has only recorded one complete cycle.
In fact, he hadn't even conducted most of Bruckner when he was still with the Guerzenich. The 5th on this set is pretty much the first time he ever 'dare' tackled that work.

Ah, here it is:

Off topic, but appropriate for the general topic:

Edit: link(s) fixed

There is only one complete (well, the 8.75 symphonies One through Nine in any case) Bruckner cycle from Wand, and that's Cologne.

There are four incomplete cycles:

NDR - 1 (live @ Musikhalle Hamburg)
3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9

The late 90s autumn's autumn cycle from Berlin (Philharmonic), with one of the greatest 8th ever put on record... includes
4, 5, 7, 8, 9

Munich (Philarmonic)
4, 5, 6, 8, 9

Schleswig Holstein / NDR 2000/2001 (DVD)
4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9

+ Luebeck / NDR:
8 , 9
That 8th is a famous, great, reverberant recording/performance... but I prefer Berlin

In addition to that, there's a "last recording" 4th with the NDR which may (or may not) be different from the one on TDK (I think it is; very broad, beautiful reading coupled with the best Schubert 5th I've ever heard), and several Ninths... in and out of print... from Stuttgart, Japan... 5 & 9 with the DSO-Berlin (also in the box set), and I think the early Cologne 5th (EMI-DHM, back when they were partners) is not the Cologne 5th in the set... but I don't have the former at hand to compare/check recording dates. As mentioned, there's an old 8th with Guerzenich on Scribendum.

[jwinter]

Is this one of those sets that retail around 20$ ? I bought a few of them at the absurd price of 15$ - all containing 4-8 discs. This must be brand, brand new. It hasn't reached the local Archambault (our Towers here in Quebec).

Correct, got mine for $23 from amazon marketplace.  I've been cutting way back in my purchases, but it was hard to pass up a Bruckner set from Wand at a price like that.

While we're on the topic of Wand -- do folks feel that his take on Bruckner changes significantly over time, or is he pretty consistent in his interpretive choices?  I have most of the late Berlin recordings and the NDR 8th from Lubeck, and now the Cologne set -- are any of his recordings with the NDR and other orchestras (thanks for the list jlaurson!) different enough to be worth hunting down at some point?  I'm assuming that I can safely spend my future Bruckner dollars elsewhere?

[Sergeant Rock]

While we're on the topic of Wand -- do folks feel that his take on Bruckner changes significantly over time...

Jens can answer you more fully than I can (I don't own much Wand: the Kölner box, NDR 4 & 9 and Berlin 8 ) but from what limited experience I do have the later performances could be radically different. Just look at the timings of the Fourth

Kölner RSO   17:26  15:39  10:36  20:20

NDR              20:26  16:56  11:58  23:41

That NDR Fourth is his last one, coupled with a stunning Schubert Fifth (a Jens' review alerted me to this CD):




In the Berlin Eighth he strikes me as more in tune with the emotional elements of the music. I find his Kölner Eighth too objective and cold (not a bad performance but one that doesn't resonate with me. I much prefer Berlin). All the Ninths are, apparently, different. Here's an interesting review that covers all five.


Sarge

[Cato]

Jens can answer you more fully than I can (I don't own much Wand: the Kölner box, NDR 4 & 9 and Berlin 8 ) but from what limited experience I do have the later performances could be radically different. Just look at the timings of the Fourth...

Sarge

One wag once explained this quite simply: the aging bodies of conductors slow down their performances.

(We will avoid an inappropriate joke at this point!) 

My counter-example to that claim is the incredible slam-dunk performance of Tchaikovsky's Francesca da Rimini by the London Symphony Orchestra conducted by Leopold Stokowski in his 90's!  He was, of course, at that age rather small and frail, but it sounds as if Paul Bunyan on uppers were on the podium!

The timings of my DGG Jochum (he was in his early 60's at the time of the recording) from the 1960's: 

17:43   16:45   10:10   20:04

[Sergeant Rock]

... the aging bodies slow down their performances.

(We will avoid an inappropriate joke at this point!) 

I won't avoid it: Mrs. Rock appreciates that part of the aging process 

Sarge

[Cato]

I won't avoid it: Mrs. Rock appreciates that part of the aging process 

Sarge

Dude!  You're in the club!   

And is it not past midnight where you are?

Get to bed!   

[Sergeant Rock]

Dude!  You're in the club!   

And is it not past midnight where you are?

Get to bed!   

Almost one a.m....but I'm retired. Time means nothing to me 

Sarge

[rw1883]

Jens can answer you more fully than I can (I don't own much Wand: the Kölner box, NDR 4 & 9 and Berlin 8 ) but from what limited experience I do have the later performances could be radically different. Just look at the timings of the Fourth

Kölner RSO   17:26  15:39  10:36  20:20

NDR              20:26  16:56  11:58  23:41

That NDR Fourth is his last one, coupled with a stunning Schubert Fifth (a Jens' review alerted me to this CD):




In the Berlin Eighth he strikes me as more in tune with the emotional elements of the music. I find his Kölner Eighth too objective and cold (not a bad performance but one that doesn't resonate with me. I much prefer Berlin). All the Ninths are, apparently, different. Here's an interesting review that covers all five.


Sarge

Sarge,

I've looked all over for that Wand 9th 5-cd set.  Do you know where I could find it?  Thanks...

Paul

[Lilas Pastia]

I react differently to Wand's Bruckner interpretations in their various incarnations. I have no idea if it's him adapting to the orchestra at hand or if it's the age factor, but I find notable differences between his various cycles (generally complete from 4 to 9 - thanks for exhuming that comprehensive list, Jens !).

I haven't heard all of them, but well over 50% and generally prefer the Hamburg readings. Bigger in sound than Cologne, yet nimbler and straighter than Berlin (if 'nimble' applies at all to Bruckner). Cologne is lean, agile and strong on spices (good for 1-6). Hamburg is beefier yet never dry or marmoreal. Instead of relying on instrument's 'spices', it gives large doses of meat with a strong beef stock base. It retains a measure of agility and never stints on drama. Berlin is long on displaying Bruckner's orchestral choirs as well as that orchestra's amazing depth of sound, but to my ears the readings belong to the musical equivalent of Madame-Tussaud's Bruckner.

But I could change my mind. I still have 7 new discs to listen to, from Berlin, Cologne and Hamburg (alas, no Munich).

[MishaK]

I haven't heard all of them, but well over 50% and generally prefer the Hamburg readings. Bigger in sound than Cologne, yet nimbler and straighter than Berlin (if 'nimble' applies at all to Bruckner). Cologne is lean, agile and strong on spices (good for 1-6). Hamburg is beefier yet never dry or marmoreal. Instead of relying on instrument's 'spices', it gives large doses of meat with a strong beef stock base. It retains a measure of agility and never stints on drama. Berlin is long on displaying Bruckner's orchestral choirs as well as that orchestra's amazing depth of sound, but to my ears the readings belong to the musical equivalent of Madame-Tussaud's Bruckner.

I would generally agree with that, though not quite with the Tussaud's Berlin comment. I find that my favorite Wand Bruckner is his NDR stuff on DVD. It has more spontaneity, more of a sense of coming-into-being, less of the calculation that I find in his Cologne and Berlin recordings,  though Cologne certainly has impact and Berlin polish. Somehow Barenboim got a bit more spontaneity out of Berlin than Wand in his BPO cycle.

[Renfield]

The Cologne Wand cycle never really managed to make a lasting impression on me. It's excellent, no doubt about that, but next to the opulence of Karajan's readings, or the rather more lean and mean Haitink cycle - not to mention Jochum's song-like, idiosyncratic Brucker - Wand's Cologne readings feel a little on the tame side.

Wand's Berlin readings, on the other hand (re: the issue of whether his Bruckner evolved over the years) have an amazing, intangible organic quality about them, next to which the Cologne cycle is (IMO) positively stodgy.

The 8th is indeed a particular highlight in Berlin, as is the 4th.

Interestingly, by the time one gets to the 'last' NDR 4th (linked above by Sarge), Wand seems to have reached a middle ground between the pastoral leanness of Cologne, and the shimmering textural magic of Berlin. So yeah, it's good!


As for the others, I've heard some 'middle-period' NDR ones, and wasn't gobsmacked; although they are quite beautiful.

Picking just one Wand 4th, 8th and 9th (that see the most duplication in the Wand catalogue), I'd go for Berlin, Berlin, Berlin.


Edit: I haven't seen any of the DVDs, though.

[jlaurson]

while we're on the topic of Wand -- do folks feel that his take on Bruckner changes significantly over time, or is he pretty consistent in his interpretive choices?  I have most of the late Berlin recordings and the NDR 8th from Lubeck, and now the Cologne set -- are any of his recordings with the NDR and other orchestras (thanks for the list jlaurson!) different enough to be worth hunting down at some point?  I'm assuming that I can safely spend my future Bruckner dollars elsewhere?

I wouldn't be so sure. As pointed out, Cologne is very different from some of the later stuff. Not all of it radically (you will always get a relatively un-portentous reading of the Fifth, for example), but significantly. I've not yet listened to all of them in a way that would allow definitive comparative notes, but I have most of Wand's Bruckner (one of the Munich recordings is missing, ditto the DSO stuff, and I don't have the DVDs, except one, which I don't like all THAT much. http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2007/01/bruckner-on-dvd-gnter-wand-in-seventh.html Oh, no... wait, I actually liked it; it was Schubert and somethingsomething with Wand from the S-H-Festival that I didn't care for.

If/when I'll get around to massive Bruckner re-immersion, I shall perhaps have more pointed remarks to offer.

Generally: Berlin 8th! Luebeck 9th. NDR II 4th. Cologne 5th...

Also: I think the review of the Wand set of just 9th symphonies is an elaborate April's Fools Joke.

[Sergeant Rock]

Also: I think the review of the Wand set of just 9th symphonies is an elaborate April's Fools Joke.

That would explain why I've never seen it on sale anywhere 

Sarge

[rw1883]

I wouldn't be so sure. As pointed out, Cologne is very different from some of the later stuff. Not all of it radically (you will always get a relatively un-portentous reading of the Fifth, for example), but significantly. I've not yet listened to all of them in a way that would allow definitive comparative notes, but I have most of Wand's Bruckner (one of the Munich recordings is missing, ditto the DSO stuff, and I don't have the DVDs, except one, which I don't like all THAT much. http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2007/01/bruckner-on-dvd-gnter-wand-in-seventh.html Oh, no... wait, I actually liked it; it was Schubert and somethingsomething with Wand from the S-H-Festival that I didn't care for.

If/when I'll get around to massive Bruckner re-immersion, I shall perhaps have more pointed remarks to offer.

Generally: Berlin 8th! Luebeck 9th. NDR II 4th. Cologne 5th...

Also: I think the review of the Wand set of just 9th symphonies is an elaborate April's Fools Joke.

Wow! Oh well...

[Cato]

The talk here recently about changes in Wand's technique and (possibly) age being involved took me back to the Bruckner performances of Carl Schuricht.

One example: Angel records used to have a budget label called Seraphim, and Schuricht had a marvelous Bruckner 9th on it with the Vienna Philharmonic c. 1962 (I believe).  At the time Schuricht would have been c. 82 years old.

The performance was one of the most powerful I have heard, and expressed the music's underlying mystery and awe of the divine.  A critic (I do not recall the name) had called Schuricht a conductor for those who want their Bruckner "straight-forward," which I found almost insulting, implying that his interpretations were perhaps unsubtle or lacking in attention to details.

Certainly the Ninth on Seraphim was powerful, so in that sense "straight-forward" was perhaps not unfair.  An octogenarian at the time, Schuricht still delivered a top performance.

[eyeresist]

I would generally agree with that, though not quite with the Tussaud's Berlin comment. I find that my favorite Wand Bruckner is his NDR stuff on DVD. It has more spontaneity, more of a sense of coming-into-being, less of the calculation that I find in his Cologne and Berlin recordings,  though Cologne certainly has impact and Berlin polish. Somehow Barenboim got a bit more spontaneity out of Berlin than Wand in his BPO cycle.

The Cologne Wand cycle never really managed to make a lasting impression on me. It's excellent, no doubt about that, but next to the opulence of Karajan's readings, or the rather more lean and mean Haitink cycle - not to mention Jochum's song-like, idiosyncratic Brucker - Wand's Cologne readings feel a little on the tame side.

Wand's Berlin readings, on the other hand (re: the issue of whether his Bruckner evolved over the years) have an amazing, intangible organic quality about them, next to which the Cologne cycle is (IMO) positively stodgy.

I'm with Mishak and Andre on this one. I'd rather hear the earlier performances. Less perfection and more life.