Bruckner's Abbey

[Renfield]

The talk here recently about changes in Wand's technique and (possibly) age being involved took me back to the Bruckner performances of Carl Schuricht.

One example: Angel records used to have a budget label called Seraphim, and Schuricht had a marvelous Bruckner 9th on it with the Vienna Philharmonic c. 1962 (I believe).  At the time Schuricht would have been c. 82 years old.

The performance was one of the most powerful I have heard, and expressed the music's underlying mystery and awe of the divine.  A critic (I do not recall the name) had called Schuricht a conductor for those who want their Bruckner "straight-forward," which I found almost insulting, implying that his interpretations were perhaps unsubtle or lacking in attention to details.

Certainly the Ninth on Seraphim was powerful, so in that sense "straight-forward" was perhaps not unfair.  An octogenarian at the time, Schuricht still delivered a top performance.

There's an excellent Bruckner 3rd by Schuricht, part of his volume of Great Conductors of the 20th Century, that I'd admittedly call 'straight-forward'; but excellent nonetheless. Gimmick-free, rather than bland, or uninspired in any way.

[MishaK]

The talk here recently about changes in Wand's technique and (possibly) age being involved took me back to the Bruckner performances of Carl Schuricht.

One example: Angel records used to have a budget label called Seraphim, and Schuricht had a marvelous Bruckner 9th on it with the Vienna Philharmonic c. 1962 (I believe).  At the time Schuricht would have been c. 82 years old.

The performance was one of the most powerful I have heard, and expressed the music's underlying mystery and awe of the divine.  A critic (I do not recall the name) had called Schuricht a conductor for those who want their Bruckner "straight-forward," which I found almost insulting, implying that his interpretations were perhaps unsubtle or lacking in attention to details.

Certainly the Ninth on Seraphim was powerful, so in that sense "straight-forward" was perhaps not unfair.  An octogenarian at the time, Schuricht still delivered a top performance.

Schuricht is one of my favorites. That Bruckner 9 is teriffic (it's from 1961, so Schuricht was "only" 81 then). There is also a superb 5 (also VPO), a decent 4th (good interpretively but marred by the lousy playing of the scratchy postwar SWR orchestra). But what's really amazing is his 1963 8th with VPO. That's simply one of the hands-down greatest performances of that work. And it's on the fast side (timings 15:32 14:00 21:44 19:43  for the mixed 1887/90 Haas version). You'd never guess it's an 83-year-old conducting. It has an intensity that grips you from the beginning and never lets go for the entire duration of the work. That apocalyptic opening of the finale is pedal-to-the-metal. Just stunning. That recording used to be available cheaply on the EMI Great Conductors series, now sadly OOP.

What's also worth checking out is Schuricht's superb Beethoven cycle from the 50s with the Paris Conservatoire Orchestra (I think) - Furtwängler allegedly once remarked after hearing Schuricht conduct Beethoven 5 "Besser kann man das nicht machen!" (it can't be done better than that!). There is also a nice set from Decca with a fine cross section of his Decca recordings that include a glowing Brahms 2 with VPO and a Brahms violin concerto with Ferras that is for me the ultimate symbiosis between conductor, orchestra and soloist.

BTW, looks like both Schuricht's VPO B9 and B8 are available from Japan:

http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.html?KEY=TOCE-14023

http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.html?KEY=TOCE-14022

[Renfield]

Schuricht is one of my favorites. That Bruckner 9 is teriffic (it's from 1961, so Schuricht was "only" 81 then). There is also a superb 5 (also VPO), a decent 4th (good interpretively but marred by the lousy playing of the scratchy postwar SWR orchestra). But what's really amazing is his 1963 8th with VPO. That's simply one of the hands-down greatest performances of that work. And it's on the fast side (timings 15:32 14:00 21:44 19:43  for the mixed 1887/90 Haas version). You'd never guess it's an 83-year-old conducting. It has an intensity that grips you from the beginning and never lets go for the entire duration of the work. That apocalyptic opening of the finale is pedal-to-the-metal. Just stunning. That recording used to be available cheaply on the EMI Great Conductors series, now sadly OOP.

What's also worth checking out is Schuricht's superb Beethoven cycle from the 50s with the Paris Conservatoire Orchestra (I think) - Furtwängler allegedly once remarked after hearing Schuricht conduct Beethoven 5 "Besser kann man das nicht machen!" (it can't be done better than that!). There is also a nice set from Decca with a fine cross section of his Decca recordings that include a glowing Brahms 2 with VPO and a Brahms violin concerto with Ferras that is for me the ultimate symbiosis between conductor, orchestra and soloist.

BTW, looks like both Schuricht's VPO B9 and B8 are available from Japan:

http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.html?KEY=TOCE-14023

http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.html?KEY=TOCE-14022

There's an excellent Bruckner 3rd by Schuricht, part of his volume of Great Conductors of the 20th Century, that I'd admittedly call 'straight-forward'; but excellent nonetheless. Gimmick-free, rather than bland, or uninspired in any way.

Correction: it is, of course, that lovely 8th in the GCot20C volume dedicated to Schuricht, as MishaK said.

The 3rd I was referring to is a Medici Classics release, if memory serves. Still very highly recommended!

[Lilas Pastia]

Guys, honestly, it doesn't matter which B5, 8 or 9 (the best, right? 0:) 0:) 0:)) are towering above the competition, or whether Furtwängler shits from a great height on Schuricht (or Szell, Karajan, etc). It's all about one's inner reaction to the music. I perfectly recall the day me and my best friend broke our piggybanks to buy records and went shopping. I chose a Telefunken record of Bach's Musical Offering (Leonhardt or Harnoncourt, but who cares?). My buddy went for Klemperer's B 9th, with the midnight sun fragmented pics adorning the lp cover, giving it a Bergman-like imagery. You can't figure this out if you haven't been part of the global marketing-cultural artistic scene (early 1970s?).

In any case, whatever one's temporal/cultural background, it takes mighty artistic impressions to equal/offset/surpass those of later epochs. IOW, first impressions last longer and loom larger. That's how art evolves (meaning: impressions are transient. Future will always engulf the past).

I eagerly wait re-acquaintance with Schuricht's 8th. But only after a few more Mahler 9ths have been digested...

[Daverz]

I second the enthusiasm for the Schuricht 8 and 9 with the VPO.  The 5 is only in OK sounding broadcast mono, but also recommended.  I have it on a "Living Stage" CD, which I suspect is just a knock-off of somebody else's transfer.

[kishnevi]

random observation made while updating the "Favorite Symphonies" list (where Bruckner 3-9 are now among the Olympians):

Bruckner wrote three symphonies (1,2 and 8 ) in c minor. Did that key have any special significance for him?

[Lethevich]

random observation made while updating the "Favorite Symphonies" list (where Bruckner 3-9 are now among the Olympians):

Bruckner wrote three symphonies (1,2 and 8 ) in c minor. Did that key have any special significance for him?

His quartet is in the key too. This is pure speculation, but given Bruckner's interest in Beethoven, it might stem from that composer's well-known use of the key, although I do wonder whether musicologists had recognised this as early as Bruckner's time, but Bruckner would have been intelligent enough to make such observations for himself.

Beethoven uses it to represent struggle, but in the 8th of Bruckner from the various notes I've read, c minor is used during the less blazing moments to represent an autumnal feel - both uses have a transfigurative quality. It would be nice if somebody does know more on this, as your observation is interesting.

[kishnevi]

His quartet is in the key too. This is pure speculation, but given Bruckner's interest in Beethoven, it might stem from that composer's well-known use of the key, although I do wonder whether musicologists had recognised this as early as Bruckner's time, but Bruckner would have been intelligent enough to make such observations for himself.

Beethoven uses it to represent struggle, but in the 8th of Bruckner from the various notes I've read, c minor is used during the less blazing moments to represent an autumnal feel - both uses have a transfigurative quality. It would be nice if somebody does know more on this, as your observation is interesting.

Hmm.  Well, Bruckner used d minor for two symphonies--3 and 9.  And guess who wrote his 9th symphony in d minor?

[Sergeant Rock]

Hmm.  Well, Bruckner used d minor for two symphonies--3 and 9.

Three actually: Die Nullte is also in D minor.


Sarge

[DieNacht]

The early Requiem (1848) is also in d-minor. The liner notes to the old nonesuch-recording by Bernhard Jacobson (Beuerle is the conductor´s name) refers to Beethoven´s 9th and Mozart´s Requiem as a possible inspiration, also as regards the key; the Bruckner work openly proclaims the study of Mozart´s work, he says. According to sources, Bruckner continued to like this early work, revising in it 1892 and saying "It isn´t bad". But I wonder what has been written about the connections with Beethoven IX, probably not just a little ...

[MishaK]

But I wonder what has been written about the connections with Beethoven IX, probably not just a little ...

Oh, plenty. All the tremolo mist openings with main theme gradually coming out of the mist before being stated at full blare, i.e. all of symphonies 3-9, are basically based on the opening of LvB 9 1st movement. Then there are more obvious parallels. Opening of 3rd, 1st movement: same key and same pitches as opening of LvB 9. Opening of 8th, 1st movement: same rhythm as opening of LvB9, but different key and intervals. Finale of 5th: the idea of having fragments of the previous movements be cited, then interrupted by the clarinet, which keeps trying to introduce the actual main theme of the finale until it finally succeeds, that's also straight out of the finale of LvB 9. Plenty more...

[Mirror Image]

I'm about to start a little Bruckner marathon myself. I'm going to start with Symphony No. 4, then work my up to the 9th. Bruckner has been a favorite composer of mine for many years. I find his music inspirational and find his dedication to the symphonic form so unique amongst the 19th Century.

[DieNacht]

Oh, plenty. All the tremolo mist openings with main theme gradually coming out of the mist before being stated at full blare, i.e. all of symphonies 3-9, are basically based on the opening of LvB 9 1st movement. Then there are more obvious parallels. Opening of 3rd, 1st movement: same key and same pitches as opening of LvB 9. Opening of 8th, 1st movement: same rhythm as opening of LvB9, but different key and intervals. Finale of 5th: the idea of having fragments of the previous movements be cited, then interrupted by the c larinet, which keeps trying to introduce the actual main theme of the finale until it finally succeeds, that's also straight out of the finale of LvB 9. Plenty more...

Interesting comment. Haven´t studied the relationship Bruckner-Beethoven, but I started getting loosely associative/not-very-scientific ideas about the string phrasing in the beginning of the VIII as somewhat similar to those of the slow movement of Beethoven´s 4. PC etc. ...

I sometimes wonder how much works by other composers heard at concerts (or in these days through recordings) actually manifest themselves subconsciously as fragments or motifs in the oeuvre of a composer ... but this is of course a difficult subject and easily develops into a playground without much purpose, hard to verify and a bit of a dead end. I guess repeated similarities would highten the possibility of influence, of course. However it is clear that most composers have heard a lot of music by their colleagues; and to what extent do they develop all their ideas themselves, except from the style they reproduce ? Hm ... but it is probably under-estimated.

[Lilas Pastia]

Bruckner's symphonies 4-7 are in major tonalities (E Flat, B Flat, A and E). These undoubtedly carry a more affirmative, confident tone, as well as a relative preponderance of radiant, luminous sonorities. All these qualities take a step or two back in the other symphonies' tonal make up and thematic/rythmic organization. All four find a way to a solid affirmation of Bruckner's faith (in Man or in God - who knows?)

In symphonies 0-3 and 8-9 (all in c or d minor), one finds instead a preponderance of nervousness, anguish, despondency, anger, tragic utterances. Their way to a climactic symphonic ending (even in 9, if one is to believe the various reconstructions of the finale) is arduous, bitter, defiant.

What started as a tentative journey (0-3) made way to a more confident view of life. Remember that symphonies 5-7 were not or very minimally revised by the composer. When illness and advancing age cast a long shadow on this very fragile soul, self doubting and a measure of self-pitying made their way into his symphonic thinking (symphonies 8 and 9). He would once again revise, dither, reconsider, start over and finally not be able to finish the finale of the 9th. The inordinate time spent by the ailing composer on that movement and his advancing mental instability make me doubt any attempt can effectively reflect what a sane and healthy Bruckner might have come up with -  what should undoubtedly have been the crowning moment of his carreer.

[Cato]

I sometimes wonder how much works by other composers heard at concerts (or in these days through recordings) actually manifest themselves subconsciously as fragments or motifs in the oeuvre of a composer ... but this is of course a difficult subject and easily develops into a playground without much purpose, hard to verify and a bit of a dead end. I guess repeated similarities would heighten the possibility of influence, of course. However it is clear that most composers have heard a lot of music by their colleagues; and to what extent  they develop all their ideas themselves, except from the style they reproduce ? Hm ... but it is probably under-estimated.

Two things come to mind here: Bruckner (seemingly ghoulishly) wanted very much to be present when Beethoven's body was exhumed because of work at the Viennese cemetery where the body was interred.  Some (contradictory) reports have him crashing into the chapel where the casket was opened and cradling the skull vs. being allowed to stare into the casket, where (possibly) a lens from Bruckner's pince-nez fell out unnoticed, to be reburied with Beethoven. 

I recall discussing the incident with a professor, who thought this desire not at all odd or ghoulish.  "Bruckner wanted to see the actual physical person who had created some of the world's greatest works," he said.  "The soul might be gone, but you can't see that anyway!  So you have the next best thing."

The other thing is the speech of the Devil in Thomas Mann's novel Doctor Faustus where the Devil sneers at the idea of inspiration, especially any notion of divine inspiration.  He also makes a comment that, after so many great composers over so many centuries, "composing has become hard, devilishly hard." 

The composer gets an idea which - at first - seems original.  Then upon second thought, no, it sounds too much like Rimsky-Korsakov or another composer, and so the composer starts to change it around, and becomes dissatisfied, and by changing it around - as Beethoven often did - one shows little appreciation to any divinity involved in the initial inspiration. 

Thus does the Devil offer the fictional composer Adrian Leverkühn a way out of this impasse, by offering a new way of composing which seems curiously similar to Schoenberg's Composition With 12-Notes.

[eyeresist]

All the tremolo mist openings with main theme gradually coming out of the mist before being stated at full blare, i.e. all of symphonies 3-9, are basically based on the opening of LvB 9 1st movement.

This is not true of 5 or 6.

[MishaK]

This is not true of 5 or 6.

It is, even if not quite as literally so.

The inordinate time spent by the ailing composer on that movement and his advancing mental instability make me doubt any attempt can effectively reflect what a sane and healthy Bruckner might have come up with -  what should undoubtedly have been the crowning moment of his carreer.

Who cares? It's at least as equally interesting what an insane Bruckner would have come up with.

[eyeresist]

It is, even if not quite as literally so.

A thing that is not literally true is not true!

[Renfield]

A thing that is not literally true is not true!

It can be 'true' as a general principle; or, true as an observation of that general principle being applied indirectly.

[Lilas Pastia]

It is, even if not quite as literally so.

Who cares? It's at least as equally interesting what an insane Bruckner would have come up with.

Who listens to what the insane Schumann wrote? Interesting as a musical footnote maybe, but not as the work of a world respected composer.

In any case, it's a nice compliment to Bruckner's genius.