Bruckner's Abbey

[Uncle Connie]

OOPS!!!   Where's the Celi MPO on my list?  Quite apart from anything else, it would have taken care of the Nowak omission....ah well, he's certainly in the second 4-6 list. 

You know, this game would have been so much easier if you'd started out saying we needed, say, 32 or so....

[Uncle Connie]

I'm going to go download something that is available no other way:


[asin]B0077Q4MHC[/asin]


I have no idea what I'm in for, except that I can tell you some of this conductor's Mahler is superb.  (Specifically, 5 and 6 - all I've heard, though he's done the cycle.)  I'll report back in a day or two when I've had time to download to a CD and play the thing a couple of times.

If this turns out to be any good - and I strongly suspect it'll be highly competent or better - then it represents yet another corner of the world Brucknerized.  There's hope after all!

(Update)  Also when I went to do the download I discovered there are two separate listings and two separate ASIN codes that will get you to this - one is $5.99, the other $3.96.  No idea why.  I originally posted the higher-price but have now substituted the cheaper.  If you drill down in Amazon on your own, be sure to hunt until you get the $2 off....

[Lilas Pastia]

Hmmmm. A 'best' list, right? It does NOT exist. Officially. Well. As I put back Sinopoli on the shelf yeserday I surveyed my collection and found out that I had indeed some clearly defined favourites. They don't belong to a particular school of phrasing, tempo or intellectual insight. No exclusive club. If it works, fine. If it works and draws me in, even better. If I start chopping the air like a maniac, or if my eyes close, my chest pumps up and I start groaning, well you can still have a look, I'm not having intercourse. just a great musical experience.

I find that a list of great versions (whether it's B 8, the Eroica, Schubert's 9 or Mahler 9) contain 3 kinds of interpretations: the first category includes those that bring a big grin of satisfaction because they adhere closely to my objective, reasoned, intellectualised conception of the work. I can listen to any of those and will always be satisfied. Most of those are to be found in the 74-81 minutes time range. The 2nd category are those particularly individual readings that are intensely absorbing but that make one realise this is either a 'one off', or a very specialised interpretation that will appeal to the seeker of 'second' or 'third' degree Bruckner interpretation.

Then there are those individual, really personal readings of the work that invariably pick my brains and make my thoughts spin in all kinds of directions. These fire off something that just can't be quelched. Therefore, they are the ones that I have more trouble describing. I can't reasonably attempt justifying my choices. It's too internalized. Who knows where one's 'right buttons' are located, what touches them and why they trigger such intense reactions? They contain all my favourites and constitute my 3rd category.

Sometimes a conductor who has recorded the work on numerous occasions will hit the 'right buttons' once, and the other efforts will hover somewhere in the periphery. Warning to those who categorize a conductor' B 8 via a particular recording ! And the eighth seems to be a work that has attracted recidivists like honey does for flies.

So, here's the list of those really personal choices that bring me back to the 8th time and time again (in alphabetical order, regardless of the quality of sound or orchestral execution, and with no comments, except when a possible duplication may induce confusion):

Abendroth Leipzig 1944
van Beinum, COA 06.09.1955 (not the Tahra release from 04.1955, fine as it is.
Böhm WP, not the Cologne or Zurich versions (categories 1 and 2 respectively). Possibly my modern benchmark.
Celibidache Munich (in Lisbon), more spontaneous and less 'canned' than its many brethrens.
Furtwängler. BP, 15.03.1949. Another one circulates from the day before ( on Testament). That was the public rehearsal and it's a bit  less committed and less well played, not to mention in slightly grainier sound. This Furt 8th is probably THE 8th to to rule them all.
Haitink COA 1969. A firebrand 8th.  Later efforts became slower and more laboured.
Jochum Bamberg, June 1982. Many Jochums are in circulation, including an almost as good September 1982 Bamberg version. All other Jochums are on a more mundane level, whether in Berlin, Dresden or Amsterdam. I hesitated putting it in the 3rd category, as it might have been 'primus inter pares' in 1. Possibly the one I would take to Mars.
Kubelik BRSO 05.1977 on the BRSO label - NOT the 1963 Orfeo release, imperfectly executed and in sometimes overloaded mono.
Païta, National Philharmonic. I promised no comments, so that's what you get.
Schuricht WP 1963
Steinberg Boston 1971.
Tennstedt LPO, not the other versions, esp. the BP on Testament.

Short list: Böhm, Furtwängler and Jochum. Followed by Kubelik, van Beinum and Celibidache.

[EDIT: van Beinum's 04.1955 version is on Tahra, not Philips. I've edited my text above. Apologies for the confusion]

[Uncle Connie]

Much, MUCH interested in your list and more comment after more thought.  But two quick notes:

1.  A friend in Britain sent me a CDR of the Paita last year, and said he thought it wonderful.  I thought he was being silly - until I played it.  I now have much greater respect for my friend's tastes....

2.  Steinberg.  A truly unexpected inclusion, but gratifying.  It was as a matter of fact Mr. Steinberg who introduced me to the 8th - in fact to Bruckner at all! - in a live concert c.1963 with the Los Angeles Phil. in a high school auditorium (!! - we were in process of building a decent public hall at the time).  I was, in a word, overwhelmed.  So a few days later I went to my favorite music shop and asked them what they had in the way of Bruckner for me to buy and explore.  They had three discs; I bought them all.  (1) The 8th, on Westminster with Knappertsbusch and Munich - which for all the disparagement I find I still love dearly;  (2) Walter doing the 4th in Los Angeles ("Columbia");  and of all things (3) the First, conducted by F. Charles Adler.
     
     And now that the anecdotes are completed, let me go explore your lists.  I note already that I have the wrong day for the Furtwängler (Testament) on my shelf.... ditto Beinum. 

[Lilas Pastia]

The performances Furtwängler gave in March 1949 exist in two different interpretations. The general rehearsal in a Berlin hall called the Gemeindehaus. The hall was empty but the performance was broadcast by Sender Freis radio. That's the one on testament. The next day's concert took place in Berlin's Titania Palast (a cinema). I have both and to my ears it's obvious that the extraordinary music making of the concert performance (March 15) eclipses the merely remarkable one of the Gemeindehaus (March 14). There are two other Furt 8th from 1944 and 1954, both with the WP, but that's another story.

The van Beinum 8ths from 1955 come to us in different takes too. The Tahra disc from is from April. Epic/Philips recorded it commercially in June. John Berky's discography mentions 6-9 June, 1955, which I would assume denotes a studio recording. But Haydn House claims it was recorded live. I doubt it, as there is no audience noise at movement ends as one can hear very clearly in the 04.21.1955 concert (Tahra). Once again I have both but to me the Philiips production is the one to have, especially in the Haydn House release http://www.haydnhouse.com/HH18.htm . NOTE: I was mixed up in the dates and labels of this version. I've edited the text in my previous post

Last one heard was a recent Weitblick production featuring a concert performance by the Vienna Symphony under [/b]Georges Prêtre[/b]. This conductor's interest in the germanic repertoire came to me as a surprise. He is best known as an opera conductor (the Callas Carmen and second Tosca) and as conductor of french music. Apparently he was coaxed out of retirement in his eighties and offered the conductorship of the Vienna symphony.

This is a surprisingly spontaneous performance, beautifully executed and shaped with obvious affection by the conductor. I enjoyed every second of it. It's actually one of the best performances I've heard. It is at once unsentimental yet warm and glowing, taut yet suitably expansive at nodal points. The coda is exultant in character and at the same time it swells to grandiose proportions. The art of concealing careful preparation so that it all sounds utterly natural. I'm mightily tempted to add it to my list of favourite 8ths. Have to give it a few more spins before deciding.

Prêtre also recorded the 7th. That should be interesting.

[Uncle Connie]

Andre:  More on your various comments later when I have time to digest.  (Also on that Tabakov download:  I screwed something up and the files vanished before I could use them, so I have to do it over.  Later.)

Meanwhile, do you know this one?


[asin]B000S6EUGG[/asin]


Berky's site lists this in the Haas Edition column, but the finale is timed at just 21:30.  And whatever he did, Jochum was no speed-racer with his tempi.  (His brother, now, that's sometimes another story....)  Any thoughts?  If not, it's cheap enough 3d-party, I'll just buy it and find out for both of us, but thought I'd ask first.

Final note for now, thanks for the tip on Beinum and Haydn House - I was just about to send them an order anyway, easy enough to add this.

[jwinter]

Glad to see I have the "right" Furtwangler Bruckner 8.      You know it's a persnickety hobby when "Bruckner 8, Furtwangler, March 1949" isn't specific enough...

My own favorite 8ths don't cover nearly the breadth of you guys -- if I have to pick a handful of favorites, I'll take Giulini, Bohm, and Schuricht, all with Vienna, Wand BPO, and Celibidache Munich (the commonly available one).   And the Furtwangler of course, though his Bruckner is almost a different animal than anyone else IMO.

Nice to see the thread active again.   

[Uncle Connie]

You know it's a persnickety hobby when "Bruckner 8, Furtwangler, March 1949" isn't specific enough...

Yeah, I know, I was wondering if we were supposed to get matinee or evening....

My own favorite 8ths don't cover nearly the breadth of you guys

That's because you don't buy CDs with every single penny of the pension, the inheritance AND the equity loan!   

if I have to pick a handful of favorites, I'll take Giulini, Bohm, and Schuricht, all with Vienna, Wand BPO, and Celibidache Munich (the commonly available one).   And the Furtwangler of course, though his Bruckner is almost a different animal than anyone else IMO.

Well, I certainly support you on Giulini, Schuricht, Celi and Furt.  Have never heard Böhm; I guess I need some further education (and expense)?  And to be honest I've never been much in love with Wand, but then I also can't remember for sure which ones I've heard and which not.  My Bruckner self-education is certainly extensive, but yet far from comprehensive in some places. 

[Cato]

Well, I certainly support you on Giulini, Schuricht, Celi and Furt.  ... My Bruckner self-education is certainly extensive, but yet far from comprehensive in some places.

Good ol' Carl Schuricht: you cannot go wrong with him at the helm.

Never to be forgotten here, Uncle Connie: if you can find the money or the library with a copy, Eugen Jochum and his two cycles.

[Lilas Pastia]

Andre:  More on your various comments later when I have time to digest.  (Also on that Tabakov download:  I screwed something up and the files vanished before I could use them, so I have to do it over.  Later.)

Meanwhile, do you know this one?


[asin]B000S6EUGG[/asin]


Berky's site lists this in the Haas Edition column, but the finale is timed at just 21:30.  And whatever he did, Jochum was no speed-racer with his tempi.  (His brother, now, that's sometimes another story....)  Any thoughts?  If not, it's cheap enough 3d-party, I'll just buy it and find out for both of us, but thought I'd ask first.

Final note for now, thanks for the tip on Beinum and Haydn House - I was just about to send them an order anyway, easy enough to add this.

I haven't heard it. I have long been prejudiced against Jochum's Bruckner, which I found generally good but often overpraised. Especially so in the case of the 8th and 9th. I was listening to the DG and EMI recordings. It took me quite a while to explore his various live concerts from the 1980s. Much to my surprise I found that he had changed substantially in his last years. Gone are the sudden accelerandos, replaced by a much more stable rythmic foundation. This allowed the trademark Jochum fervour to bloom naturally. A tougher, more granitic Bruckner emerged, but still suffused with glow, intensity and his uncanny way to shape the works' peaks and valleys with a clear view of THE climax.

Quite recently I became acquainted with early Jochum in the form of the 1949 Hamburg 8th. I was floored by this. It's a mountainously grand vision, a fiery drama played to the hilt by the redoubtable hamburgers (couldn't resist that one ). At the time Nowak's work on the editions was not out, so everybody played either the Haas or one of the now discredited versions (as Furtwängler did). When Dr. Nowak's editions were published there was no return to the old ways for Jochum. He has been a Nowak man ever since. I'm not unduly surprised to see a timing of 21:30 under Jochum, even with the extra padding Haas provided. I suppose it's a very volatile interpretation. Considering it's a live affair I would not expect much in terms of sonic presence. If you have a chançe give this Hamburg 8th a hearing. DGG has reissued it in good soumd, paired with a 1954 BRSO 9th.

I know it does sound persnickety to haggle over the  2 March 1949 performances, but the truth of the matter is that they are sufficiently different to warrant closer examination. One is not quite finished, while the other is the real article.

[jwinter]

Sorry, I didn't mean persnickety in a negative way -- I have absolutely no doubt that the differences are significant.  It's just fascinating sometimes the depths and fine grains of knowledge one runs across in these parts.   

[Uncle Connie]

Sorry, I didn't mean persnickety in a negative way -- I have absolutely no doubt that the differences are significant.  It's just fascinating sometimes the depths and fine grains of knowledge one runs across in these parts.   

I can't imagine that anyone took your comment in a negative way.  I certainly didn't.  You are, you know, absolutely correct. 

[Uncle Connie]

Follow-up on that download of the 8th, Emil Tabakov:

Well.  Don't all queue up at once fighting for the right to hear it first.  There are many, many moments, but the simple fact is that the Bulgarian Radio Orchestra needs a bit more development before they swim in the Bruckner pool again.  Compare them for instance to what was supposedly another third-world (?) orchestra, RSO Ljubljana, doing the 8th under Anton Nanut.  The latter is really a top-level interpretation and a recording that really ought to be way up there on most of the lists.  Tabakov's, well, maybe work a bit more at it, and then do it again in a studio instead of live (on air) so they can make a few edits.

(To download the Nanut, go here:   

[asin]B002G7CE7W[/asin]

and do not be misled by the one customer review and the pendant comments (except mine), which Amazon seems to have attached to the wrong product.  They have to do with a Haitink disc; but you are getting the Nanut download, I've confirmed that by matching the timings to those on Berky's site, and also against all the Haitinks listed.  Also, although Ljubljana is much much better than the Bulgarian group, they still don't sound at all like the Concertgebouw or Bavarian Radio.)

[Lilas Pastia]

I can't imagine that anyone took your comment in a negative way.  I certainly didn't.  You are, you know, absolutely correct.

ABSOLUTELY. Jwinter, your comment was right on the money and I didn't take it in a negative way, au contraire!  . It's a matter of fact that Bruckner performances tend to ignite in the concert hall and congeal in front of microphones. What exactly causes that is hard to fathom, but it's a FACT. And what causes a conductor's tempi to be more mobile (swifter) in concert is another mystery. Nowhere is this more obvious than in Knappertsbusch's or Böhm's numerous concert or studio recordings. The latter in particular is a special case: his commercial recording of the 8th was made in 1976 when the conductor was 82. Clocking in at 80 minutes, it's neither swift nor slow. It's actually the perfect duration I expect of a performance. And yet, his numerous public performances - some of them when he was even older - invariably took him 7-8 minutes less. All of those I've listened to sound uncomfortably rushed and stint on the majesty and grandeur I expect to hear in this work.

In the case of the March 1949 Furtwängler 8ths, I strongly suspect that the absence of a live audience on the 14th made Furtwängler rely more on his intellectual than his emotional bond with the composer. In sum, maybe that account should never have been issued. Both as an interpretation and execution it is less committed and the sound is not as good anyway. Unfortunately that's one of the problems with any Furtwängler release. The concert performances convey the artist's vision, warts and all. In the studio you hear the labourer's work first, the artist's personality second.

[Sergeant Rock]

Kubelik BRSO 05.1977 on the BRSO label - NOT the 1963 Orfeo release, imperfectly executed and in sometimes overloaded mono.

This one, André?

[asin]B00442M0NA[/asin]


Kubelik with the Cleveland Orchestra was my first live Bruckner Eighth.

Païta, National Philharmonic. I promised no comments, so that's what you get.

I recall your original review    It made me run out and buy it. Money well spent. It's one of my favorites now. Unique, to say the least.


Sarge

[jwinter]

 Quote from: Uncle Connie on August 07, 2012, 08:28:50 PM

Follow-up on that download of the 8th, Emil Tabakov:

Well.  Don't all queue up at once fighting for the right to hear it first.  There are many, many moments, but the simple fact is that the Bulgarian Radio Orchestra needs a bit more development before they swim in the Bruckner pool again...

 
That doesn't surprise me.  The only Tabakov recordings I have are his Mahler with the Sofia Philharmonic, which I tried in the super-bargain bin.  They do have a certain rustic charm that suits Mahler, and if I'd heard them in concert I'd have been perfectly content, but it's not something I'll frequently revisit given the amount of competition out there.  Good, thoroughly competent, but by no means great...

Anyhoo, enough Mahler.  I did relisten to Furtwangler's March 15 1949, 8th, and it is indeed superb.   Doing that, I realized that I have a Furt 8th that I haven't listened to yet, from the recent Music & Arts set.  Looks like WP, March 17 1944.  Will give that a spin next...

[asin]B0012XIGZU[/asin]

[Sergeant Rock]

The 25 versions I own, six favorites in bold (coincidently, three Nowak, three Haas):

SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1887/90 HAAS           KARAJAN VIENNA PHIL
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1887/90 HAAS (DG)   KARAJAN BERLIN PHIL
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1887/90 HASS (EMI)  KARAJAN BERLIN PHIL
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1890 NOWAK           CELIBIDACHE MUNICH PHIL
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1890 NOWAK           CELIBIDACHE STUTTGART RSO
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1890 NOWAK           KLEMPERER NEW PHILHARMONIA
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1887/90 HAAS         BOULEZ VIENNA PHIL
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1890 NOWAK           MAAZEL BERLIN PHIL
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1890 NOWAK           MAAZEL SOBR
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1890 NOWAK           JOCHUM STAATSKAPELLE DRESDEN
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1890 NOWAK           GIULINI VIENNA PHIL
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1890 NOWAK           SZELL CLEVELAND
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1887/90 HAAS         SCHURICHT VIENNA PHIL
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1890 NOWAK/HAAS   BÖHM TONHALLE ZÜRICH
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1887/90 HAAS           BARENBOIM BERLIN PHIL
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1887/90 HAAS           WAND BERLIN PHIL
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1887/90 HAAS           WAND KÖLNER RSO
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1887/90 HAAS           DOHNÁNYI CLEVELAND
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1887/90 HAAS           PAITA PHILHARMONIC SO
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR 1892 BRUCKNER/SCHALK                KNAPPERTSBUSCH MUNICH PHIL
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR HAAS/FURTWÄNGLER (1944)           FURTWÄNGLER VIENNA PHIL
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR HAAS/FURTWÄNGLER (1949)           FURTWÄNGLER BERLIN PHIL
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1890 NOWAK            CHAILLY CONCERTGEBOUW

[Lilas Pastia]

This one, André?

[asin]B00442M0NA[/asin]


Kubelik with the Cleveland Orchestra was my first live Bruckner Eighth.


I recall your original review    It made me run out and buy it. Money well spent. It's one of my favorites now. Unique, to say the least.


Sarge

Yes, that one. I find nothing to criticise in it, and everything deserves to be praised. The Orfeo is defective in sound and playing. This really shows Kubelik at his best.

[eyeresist]

Follow-up on that download of the 8th, Emil Tabakov:

Well.  Don't all queue up at once fighting for the right to hear it first.  There are many, many moments, but the simple fact is that the Bulgarian Radio Orchestra needs a bit more development before they swim in the Bruckner pool again.  Compare them for instance to what was supposedly another third-world (?) orchestra, RSO Ljubljana, doing the 8th under Anton Nanut.  The latter is really a top-level interpretation and a recording that really ought to be way up there on most of the lists.

Amazon MP3 also has Nanut doing symphonies 3-5. (Plus I was surprised to discover a Prokofiev 2nd attributed to the same artists.)

[Uncle Connie]

Amazon MP3 also has Nanut doing symphonies 3-5. (Plus I was surprised to discover a Prokofiev 2nd attributed to the same artists.)

Yes, I saw that, and wondered if it would be worth it - then I realized it's only $3 per symphony (but I have to buy them all), so I shall go do the purchase and we shall see.

Also updating an earlier comment from Andre, I've sent the Haydn House my order for the "correct" Beinum.  And while poking around for that, I also found an offer for other of his recordings, notably a 1955 Zero.  Well, I am a complete sucker for a Zero, so it's ordered as well.  (The others that they offer of Beinum's, I have.  And also the "wrong" 8th.)