Bruckner's Abbey

[Uncle Connie]

Amazon MP3 also has Nanut doing symphonies 3-5. (Plus I was surprised to discover a Prokofiev 2nd attributed to the same artists.)

Update.  I have now bought this, and downloaded it, and extensively sampled it.

To quote Monty Python, "RUN AWAY!"

I have no idea yet about the performances, but in all three cases the sound is atrocious.  The Fourth has the depth of old 78s played with the cheapest stylus obtainable.  The Third is marginally better at first, but as soon as the timpani enters in that very long opening crescendo, it sounds as if the drummer is riding the Underground directly beneath the stage; it's a distorted rumble!  And though all I did was sample around, there's no appearance of improvement anywhere. 

With the Fifth the problem isn't just the sound, which is nevertheless bad.  It is the slowest, most plodding thing I have ever heard in my life.  The tip-off is the timing:  It takes 92 minutes (sic!!), which is five minutes slower than Celibidache/MPO.  I wasn't aware that was possible, but here it is on my hard drive.  Anybody have insomnia?  Send me your address, I'll send a CDR, and your problem is solved!   

Rounded-off timings by movement:  25, 21, 19, 28.  I haven't had the nerve to play any one of these through to find out if there's some special technical problem (but the tempos are truly slow, I can tell you that much).  But it really doesn't matter; this is not a major item in the Bruckner library.  And that's really a disappointment, because everything I've ever heard from Nanut, by any composer, has 'til now been at least good, usually excellent. 

Oh rats.

[jwinter]

 Quote from: Uncle Connie on Today at 03:15:52 PM

... The tip-off is the timing:  It takes 92 minutes (sic!!), which is five minutes slower than Celibidache/MPO. 

 


Quick, somebody call Sarge!   

[Uncle Connie]

Quote from: Uncle Connie on Today at 03:15:52 PM

... The tip-off is the timing:  It takes 92 minutes (sic!!), which is five minutes slower than Celibidache/MPO. 

 


Quick, somebody call Sarge!   

Oh, I'm sure Sarge will get in on this soon enough.... 

And I went researching some more, just for my own interest, and discovered (a) there is actually one longer version than even this Nanut albeit just 15 seconds - Horst Stein, Wuppertal Phil.  (Have no idea how to obtain it....)  and (b) Although Nanut's 92:30 is astronomical, there are actually a few versions that come close overall, and several that match or even exceed Nanut in a given movement.  E.g. in the finale, Nanut takes 27 minutes, but so do Asahina (in Chicago) and Bosch (in Tübingen), and Kurt Eichhorn in Linz exceeds!  (The timings by the way are all from Berky's site)  First and second movements similar; only in the Scherzo is Nanut clearly the slowpoke at 19 minutes vs. 15 for his nearest three competitors.

But in any case I think there's no likely technical problem, so I just need to go listen and see why he's such a  slug! 

OH YEAH - and also, the Amazon download listing has the 5th Symphony labeled "The Tragic."          Where did that come from?

[eyeresist]

Update.  I have now bought this, and downloaded it, and extensively sampled it.

To quote Monty Python, "RUN AWAY!"

I have no idea yet about the performances, but in all three cases the sound is atrocious.

I listened to the samples and thought they were acceptable.

Re the 5th's timings, it's always possible Amazon has just entered them wrongly.

[Uncle Connie]

I listened to the samples and thought they were acceptable.

Yes, I felt the same way - until I played the result of the download.  Perhaps if I had a better sound system connected to the computer, instead of the tiny built-in speaker that came with it, I'd have better luck sorting out poor vs. good sonics.

Re the 5th's timings, it's always possible Amazon has just entered them wrongly.

Sure, but in this case I checked another source which has nothing to do with Amazon, and they matched.  And once I'd finished the download, they still matched.  This is one very slow Fifth....

[Uncle Connie]

Is anybody familiar with this:


[asin]B004PKO5MA[/asin]


If so, is it worth the trouble, or is it 'just another d minor to clutter the shelf?' 

[Lilas Pastia]

When it comes to the 'Nullte', my favourite by quite a margin is the totally unexpected Neville Marriner with the Stuttgart Radio Symphony. As euphonious, idiomatic and exhilarating as can be. Did you hear it ?

[Sergeant Rock]

Quick, somebody call Sarge!

....and several that match or even exceed Nanut in a given movement.  E.g. in the finale, Nanut takes 27 minutes, but so do Asahina (in Chicago) and Bosch (in Tübingen), and Kurt Eichhorn in Linz exceeds!

Peter Jan Marthé (a Celi disciple) is a bit slower than Nanut too (27:27) although his overall timing isn't nearly so extreme.

Yes, I felt the same way - until I played the result of the download.  Perhaps if I had a better sound system connected to the computer, instead of the tiny built-in speaker that came with it, I'd have better luck sorting out poor vs. good sonics.

I have decent speakers connected to my computer. Listened to the clips at Amazon. Sounds like mediocre broadcast quality mated to artificial reverb. The brass is atrocious, the bass boomy. That Scherzo is fascinating though. I'm tempted. In my youth I was a mean slam dancer but this is more my speed today 

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

Is anybody familiar with this:


[asin]B004PKO5MA[/asin]


If so, is it worth the trouble, or is it 'just another d minor to clutter the shelf?'

I own it, and the Venzago 0/1 you mentioned a few days ago. Only listened once and, memory being what it is these days, I can't recall my reaction other than it was generally positive (but then I have trouble hating any Nullte I hear). I'll search through my CD piles, see if I can find it again for another listen. (Unfortunately, with the chaotic state of my hundreds of unshelved CDs, it could take awhile.)

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

Is anybody familiar with this:
If so, is it worth the trouble, or is it 'just another d minor to clutter the shelf?' 

I found it. It was in the next to last pile (I'm shocked, shocked it wasn't in the last pile  )  Listening now. To answer your question: yes, worth acquiring. It's unique in that it shares with Maazel/SOBR the distinction of having the slowest first movement on record (18:08 and 18:25; almost all other versions clock in at three to five minutes faster). Unlike Maazel's weary tread (which I love, by the way), Blunier retains that special Brucknerian sense of mystery...or even mysticism. The second subject is especially well done in that respect. This isn't a wild and dramatic D minor, but reverential in the Celibidache mold. The Adagio (unlike Maazel's quickstep) is also really slow in comparison to other versions. The slowest, in fact, but it still flows nicely. [Edit: found an even slower Andante: Shimono with the Osaka Philharmonic.) I don't have the ability to listen to the SACD layer but the CD sounds fine.

Edit: One other reason you might consider getting this CD. It has some interesting fillers: the March in D minor WAB 96 and Three Pieces WAB 97, both from 1862. The March is interesting in that, even though it's a very early work, you can hear Bruckner's mature style.

Sarge

[Uncle Connie]

Peter Jan Marthé (a Celi disciple) is a bit slower than Nanut too (27:27) although his overall timing isn't nearly so extreme.




I have decent speakers connected to my computer. Listened to the clips at Amazon. Sounds like mediocre broadcast quality mated to artificial reverb. The brass is atrocious, the bass boomy. That Scherzo is fascinating though. I'm tempted. In my youth I was a mean slam dancer but this is more my speed today 

Sarge

Marthe:  Didn't he tinker with the score, thus adding time by adding material not in the original?  I must go play it again - I found it weird, but it's been forever since I heard it....

Agreed on what's wrong with the Nanut stuff.  And as my equipment isn't good enough to compensate, I'll keep it mostly because I paid for it, not because I much want it....

[Uncle Connie]

When it comes to the 'Nullte', my favourite by quite a margin is the totally unexpected Neville Marriner with the Stuttgart Radio Symphony. As euphonious, idiomatic and exhilarating as can be. Did you hear it ?

At the moment my "reference" Nullte seems to be Ferdinand Leitner.  Alternatively, Inbal isn't bad at all.  And Chailly.  Those are the three I have at the moment, with van Beinum on order from Haydn House.  Some aeons ago I did have the Marriner, I think, but I must not have been overwhelmed because it isn't here any more.  Nor are Tintner nor Mehta, both of which I disliked.

[Uncle Connie]

Further to "Die Nullte":

Sarge, thanks for the comments on the Blunier.  You've made a sale for some lucky merchant, I just ordered it.

Ditto Marriner, thank you for that one, Andre; there are any number of cheap copies for sale third-party, so I snapped one up.  I'm certain I've heard it, I just don't remember a thing about it.  This must be corrected!!

Two others I neglected to mention:  Solti's is tripe; just look at the timing (under 39 min.), he's just going through the motions to complete his set.  Rozhdestvensky on the other hand is very good, maybe too serious and intense about a lighter-weight symphony, but better that than the reverse.  Like Solti.  Rozhdy's hard to find though, and not cheap.  But if you get lucky, grab it. 

[Sergeant Rock]

Marthe:  Didn't he tinker with the score, thus adding time by adding material not in the original?

Yeah, Marthé added percussion (timpani, cymbals, triangle) to some climactic passages and re-scored a few measures. But I don't think he added anything that increased the symphony's length. His Third and Ninth are really slow too.

Sarge

[Lilas Pastia]

Further to "Die Nullte":

Sarge, thanks for the comments on the Blunier.  You've made a sale for some lucky merchant, I just ordered it.

Ditto Marriner, thank you for that one, Andre; there are any number of cheap copies for sale third-party, so I snapped one up.  I'm certain I've heard it, I just don't remember a thing about it.  This must be corrected!!

Two others I neglected to mention:  Solti's is tripe; just look at the timing (under 39 min.), he's just going through the motions to complete his set.  Rozhdestvensky on the other hand is very good, maybe too serious and intense about a lighter-weight symphony, but better that than the reverse.  Like Solti.  Rozhdy's hard to find though, and not cheap.  But if you get lucky, grab it.

Every time I've seem Rozhdestvensky's Nullte it was on a Chant du Monde twofer in harness with the '00'. It is very good indeed, with a special nod to the very russian orchestra who make quite an impression in such 'echt-österreischiche' music (are thee enough s, c and h in there? ). After Marriner I'd vote for the ever reliable and always fresh and idiomatic Haitink. Tintner is rather blah.

I haven't heard Leitner, but based on his formidable 6th and 9th I'd give him a free pass any time.

[Sergeant Rock]

Every time I've seem Rozhdestvensky's Nullte it was on a Chant du Monde twofer in harness with the '00'. It is very good indeed, with a special nod to the very russian orchestra who make quite an impression in such 'echt-österreischiche' music (are thee enough s, c and h in there? ).

You got all the letters in there but misplaced the second s. Should be österreichische.

Sarge

[Lilas Pastia]

 
I did look at it quizzically. Then I googled the word as I had written and links came out. I was reassured, but still skeptical. Thanks !

[eyeresist]

Yes, I felt the same way - until I played the result of the download.  Perhaps if I had a better sound system connected to the computer, instead of the tiny built-in speaker that came with it, I'd have better luck sorting out poor vs. good sonics.

I listened on earbuds. I guess the thing is the latest sonics aren't important to me. Plenty of my favourites are quite old or in broadcast sound.

[Uncle Connie]

I've just received and played through the following twice (I mentioned earlier having it on order):


[asin]B007S6R3E0[/asin]


I'm not quite certain I know what to make of it, nor can I tell yet whether I'm going to like it down the line.  It's a bit strange, put up against all the 'traditional' approaches over the years.  Venzago first of all has cut his orchestra down to a smaller size than we're used to , allegedly in emulation of what Bruckner might have found in Linz or even Vienna at the time this work was new.  Further, he's added ritardandi here and there, but also subtracted a few of the traditional ones; the result is occasionally (but not frequently) jarring to someone quite familiar with the score.  And then there's the matter of the strings playing without vibrato, very much in the manner of those Baroque period-performance groups, except that Venzago goes into great detail in the booklet to distinguish between the use of this playing style in the Romantic era in a very different way and for very different reasons than in the Baroque.  I am hardly in any position to contradict him; but I can say that the passages without vibrato - essentially, those that closely echo the sounds of Austrian traditional dance music, most obviously (but not solely) the Trio of the Scherzo - sound just plain strange to my ears.  This is what I meant by not knowing whether I'll eventually like it.  For now I am so startled by the sudden shift in string sound, 'out' of vibrato and then a bit later right back 'in' again, that I am left with a sense of awkward discomfort wholly overwhelming the continuity.  I suppose if one is going to try this at all, the 2d is the place to do it, what with all the abrupt pauses already in play; but even with that allowed for, I still find the pauses logical (if overdone) and Venzago's bowing jarring.

I'll keep trying, though, because when Venzago is good, and that is very often, he is magnificent.  He is certainly worth hearing and studying, even if ultimately one goes back to some other versions. 

=====

On another matter, more succinctly, I came across a reference to an odd little source of CDRs of radio tapes from days gone by, based in Italy, almost certainly pirated, and very likely (to be generous and polite) of extremely variable sound quality.  They call themselves "Disco Archivia" and they can be found at   www.musicinthemail.com/classicalconducting/index.html 

Their starting point is great conductors of the past, and they sell - at $5 per disc - a wide range of things that are not available anywhere else to my knowledge.  You order via a box in New York and get your items 4-6 weeks later, presumably made in Italy and then distributed from the New York office. 

I took a chance, risked a few dollars, and the reason I put this here is that one of my items was the B. 2d with Hermann Scherchen, Toronto 1965.  There's a conductor wholly unassociated with Bruckner (he did do the 9th a few times), picking a less-known work to include in what would turn out to be the last tour of his life (he died in '66).  To me, very much worth finding out.  It's either going to be a hopeless mess or a stunning revelation; I'll let you know.  (If you happen to have heard the Mahler 7th he did in Toronto on the same tour, you'll know that it is a bit of both - a mess and a revelation.)   (Also ordered Willem van Otterloo doing the 3d - a much unheralded but excellent Brucknerian of the 50s through 70s.) 

[Lilas Pastia]

Hi Conor, thanks for this detailed and honest impression of the Venzago early Bruckner. I specify 'early' as he could branch into something totally different in the late symphonies if he does them - well, I hope he reconsiders a 'no vibrato policy' if he does the 9th . Speaking of 'authentic' Bruckner style, the Mehta Vienna 9th is probaly farthest removed from what you describe and yet, Mehta learned his Bruckner when studying in Vienna in the 1950s. Not all that far removed from the composer's death in 1896 when he left the 9th unfinished...

That being said, Bruckner was born (1824) and musically raised in the backwaters of Upper Austria. It is very possible that in his formative years his sound world was still anchored in the Classical era, possibly far from the influence of the Romantic movement even though it was just a few years 'around the corner'.  Notice how his musical 'breathing' started to expand and take wing with the 4th symphony. The original version of 3 and 4 being something of a transition between the two periods, his musical language evolving from often curt, clipped themes and musical phrases framed into discursive canvases to more expansive themes and developed musical paragraphs framed in tighter, better organised structures. By the time of the 5th and 6th symphonies Bruckner's mature language is fully formed in vocabulary, grammar and syntax. IMO a PI sound in these works would be totally alien and retrograde to the composer's evolution. OTOH I would most certainly buy a Harnoucourt Concentus Musicus interpretation of the middle and even late symphonies. A leap of faith, on behalf of my admiration for this conductor's musical mavericism (don't look up your Webster's, I just invented the word ). BTW his WP or COA Bruckner leave me cold - all of them. He has to rely on the Force, not old recipes .

I have a recording of symphony 1, a favourite of mine since my teen years, played by the Wiener Akademie under Martin Haselböck. If you don't know that conductor, he normally dabbles in PI stuff. He is here conducting his PI band and the results clearly call for tolerance and open-mindedness. I didn't care much for it when I first heard it. Heavily treble-oriented (because vibratoless low strings sound more or less like a hurdy-gurdy to the violins' clear, glassy tones), as far removed from 'traditional' Bruckner playing as could be. Prompted by your review I'll give it another spin (thread duty indeed) and see how it  fares now.

Great post, please keep them coming!