Bruckner's Abbey

[Leo K.]

Listened to Wand's Bruckner 7 this morning (the account shown above).  Wand is more interesting than most it seems, with regard to boisterous and tight phrasing (if thats the right word), and never losing sight of the finish line. As far as I know (or hear) Wand specifically has the credo of a musical piece (or a movement from a piece) being a line of various events, but always with a specific climax that should be moved towards and pointed to. This recording exemplifys that, at the same time often being more contrastful, and fluent in tempo. It is a wonder to behold.

Celibidache, on the other hand, mocked critics who demanded "die große Linie", the grand line, the red thread, the big picture. This was in the 1980s, when he had already begun to slow down significantly. He also said the most important thing he learned from Furtwängler was that the better it sounds, the slower you have to get. I suppose Celibidache, especially with the Munich Philharmonic, was able to produce a sound that was continually getting better and better, so he got slower and slower. But I personally tend to go for the "line" the more I listen to Bruckner. Slowness just puts me to sleep the older I get!

To me, Bruckner is a composer whose very directness and clarity makes me feel very strongly that there is another message, another music between the lines. Bruckner was indeed a direct fellow and he perhaps thought that he meant what he said and vice versa... But already his austere catholicism gives us a hint that "mystery", the things left unsaid, played a large part in his life. Also, he himself said that "My eighth is a mystery." I'm talking about can be purely psychological, philosophical or even just "musical", if one accepts the view that such music-less music can exist.

The simplicity of his musical building blocks also makes one think that there is "something" beyond the blocks themselves (of course the arrangement of the blocks is visibly complicated, but that's another matter). Think of the symbol of the cross itself: just two straight lines, yet there is enormous message behind it. However, I must stress that I'm not just talking about religion here, the "another level" perhaps is better terminology.

[Sergeant Rock]

All Editions? Wow. Seven variants, by my count

I was aware of six. But what's one more  .

Eight if you count the latest version, by Celi disciple (and possibly Satan's too  ) Peter Jan Marthé:




Sarge

[TheGSMoeller]

Eight if you count the latest version, by Celi disciple (and possibly Satan's too  ) Peter Jan Marthé:




Sarge

The cover art scares me too much.

[Brahmsian]

Eight if you count the latest version, by Celi disciple (and possibly Satan's too  ) Peter Jan Marthé:




Sarge

I don't know what scares me more:  The diabolical photo, or the word "Reloaded".  Reminds me of all the pop songs in the 1990's that were remade as 'Unplugged' versions!  Yuck! 

[TheGSMoeller]

Eight if you count the latest version, by Celi disciple (and possibly Satan's too  ) Peter Jan Marthé:




Sarge

What concerns me the most is that he probably believes he's holding a conversation with Bruckner's bust.

[Cato]

What concerns me the most is that he probably believes he's holding a conversation with Bruckner's bust.

It's called channeling, Dude!   

And...

If you stare at it long enough, you will see that Bruckner is behind Laurence Fishburne!!!

[Brahmsian]

What concerns me the most is that he probably believes he's holding a conversation with Bruckner's bust.

Variation on a theme of holding conversations with busts

Many a woman's comment regarding men:

What concerns me the most is that he looks like he's holding a conversation with my bust.

[Leo K.]

Memories of Wand's Bruckner 8 in Berlin.



The world that is capable can play very-very slow, still maintaining its own energetic references to the whole, spread in time, phrases. You have trumpets, trombones, clarinets, bassoons, tubas and french horns sounds, sounding perfectly and superbly professional; the playing discipline is Zen-like, a nothingness with its own musical greatness.

Wand’s expressionism hits you with his own superiority and subordinates you from your awareness, back to  totally nothing. Bruckner’s eighth is large and powerful, masculine and bold. The Berlin orchestra so great that it itself might be compared to its own greatness, unlike the softer and much more gentle Vienna. Vienna is one of the very few orchestras that can do it with such a charm while observing the music, and the pleasure of Vienna is their ability to create drama or beauty from music awhile the music informs you about nothingness enough to become a self-contained value. The Vienna’s “jointing of the entire symphony” is like the orchestral introduction of the Bruckner 4th, with no sensible efforts or strength to play the music. Like the Rach’s second concerto – a few notes are enough to understand. It might be a very simple phrase but Berlin Bruckner is monumental and controlling. It is Wand’s ability to play along with the rest of orchestra that I think is his own force. you do not own this music; you rather are witnessing the music with Wand.

[Sergeant Rock]

What concerns me the most is that he probably believes he's holding a conversation with Bruckner's bust.

You're joking, but...this is from Marthé's liner notes:

"I have created and finished this [new version] with all my energy and power and, in exclusive responsibility to Bruckner, in his spirit and under his command."

Cue the Twilight Zone theme.


Sarge

[TheGSMoeller]

So I have Celibidache's 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th on EMI. Should I continue and get the 7th? I love the way Chailly broadly handles the final moments of the finale, possibly my tops for the 7th anyway,  and looking at the times of Celibidache's 7th (14:31 - finale) I believe I would find success here just as well.

[Cato]

You're joking, but...this is from Marthé's liner notes:

"I have created and finished this [new version] with all my energy and power and, in exclusive responsibility to Bruckner, in his spirit and under his command."

Cue the Twilight Zone theme.


Sarge

Like I said above, "channeling" had to be involved.   

Does anybody recall Rosemary Brown?

From Wikipedia:

(Rosemary Brown) created a small media sensation in the 1970s by presenting works purportedly dictated to her by Franz Liszt, Johannes Brahms, Johann Sebastian Bach, Sergei Rachmaninoff, Franz Schubert, Edvard Grieg, Claude Debussy, Frédéric Chopin, Robert Schumann and Ludwig van Beethoven.

...Brown claimed to have been only seven years old when she was first introduced to the world of dead musicians. She reported that a spirit with long white hair and a flowing black cassock appeared and told her he was a composer and would make her a famous musician one day. Brown did not know who he was until, about ten years later, she saw a picture of Franz Liszt...

Then in 1964 Liszt "renewed contact" and original compositions began flooding in from great musicians of the past. Mrs Brown transcribed pieces from Brahms, Bach, Rachmaninoff, Schubert, Grieg, Debussy, Chopin, Schumann, Beethoven, and Liszt himself. These included a 40-page Schubert sonata, a Fantaisie-Impromptu in three movements by Chopin, 12 songs by Schubert, and two sonatas by Beethoven as well as his 10th and 11th Symphonies, both unfinished.

Brown claimed that each composer had his own way of dictating to her. Liszt controlled her hands for a few bars at a time, and then she wrote down the notes. Others, like Chopin, told her the notes and pushed her hands on to the right keys. Schubert tried to sing his compositions to her "but he hasn't got a very good voice". Beethoven and Bach simply dictated the notes — a method she said she disliked since she had no idea what the finished product would sound like. All of these composers spoke to her in English. Brown stated this did not surprise her: "Why shouldn't they go on learning on the other side?"[citation needed]

A recording titled The Rosemary Brown Piano Album presents performances of some of the music Brown transcribed. She published a number of books, including Unfinished Symphonies: Voices from the Beyond.

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosemary_Brown_%28spiritualist%29

[mahler10th]

Like I said above, "channeling" had to be involved.   
Does anybody recall Rosemary Brown?
From Wikipedia:
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosemary_Brown_%28spiritualist%29

9 minutes into this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcraiFro0x8

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I just realized I have Kubelik's studio 3rd! I'd totally forgotten I had it - it was a gift from a friend.

I'll give that one listen MI and report back.

I love his live 3rd, so I'll be interested in hearing your opinion, DD.

[Moving this here from the Favorite Bruckner Conductor poll].

MI, I got around to Kubelik's studio 3rd tonight and I have to say that overall this is an extremely fine performance. I felt perhaps the first movement could've used just a bit more thrust but honestly I'm not sure this is my favorite Bruckner movement anyway.

Once past the first movement though the urgency kicks up a notch or two and I really enjoyed the added warmth in Kubelik's approach. It's this warmth that ultimately wins the day for me and pushes this 3rd into high recommendation territory. 

Not sure how this one compares to his live 3rd, though. It'd be interesting to hear how he handles the first movement live and if it comes up with extra umph.

[Mirror Image]

[Moving this here from the Favorite Bruckner Conductor poll].

MI, I got around to Kubelik's studio 3rd tonight and I have to say that overall this is an extremely fine performance. I felt perhaps the first movement could've used just a bit more thrust but honestly I'm not sure this is my favorite Bruckner movement anyway.

Once past the first movement though the urgency kicks up a notch or two and I really enjoyed the added warmth in Kubelik's approach. It's this warmth that ultimately wins the day for me and pushes this 3rd into high recommendation territory. 

Not sure how this one compares to his live 3rd, though. I'd be interesting to hear how he handles the first movement live and if it comes up with extra umph.

Excellent, thanks DD. I might have to pick this one up at some juncture. I love his live 3rd on Audite. What an awesome performance.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Excellent, thanks DD. I might have to pick this one up at some juncture. I love his live 3rd on Audite. What an awesome performance.

Knowing that you're picky about sound, MI, what's your opinion of the sonics on the Audite?

[Mirror Image]

Knowing that you're picky about sound, MI, what's your opinion of the sonics on the Audite?

I give it a thumbs up, DD! Sounds great to me and given it was a live recording I was kind of worried, but that worry quickly subsided once the first crescendo happened.

[Karl Henning]

Eight if you count the latest version, by Celi disciple (and possibly Satan's too  ) Peter Jan Marthé:




Sarge

This ain't your grandfather's Abbey!

[jlaurson]

So I have Celibidache's 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th on EMI. Should I continue and get the 7th? I love the way Chailly broadly handles the final moments of the finale, possibly my tops for the 7th anyway,  and looking at the times of Celibidache's 7th (14:31 - finale) I believe I would find success here just as well.

Oh, why not. :-) In any case: after your traversal so far, and presumably positive experiences, would you let a so-so statement on our part really keep you from adding 7-9?

As an inveterate lover of Celi 3, 5, and 6, though, I must say that there are other 7th (and a good number of them) that do a good deal more for me. Chailly included.

[Cato]

I first became acquainted with the name Celibidache through a chance meeting in Germany 20 years ago or so with a gaggle of 50-something Celibidache groupies, who extolled his every movement on the podium, praised his whole bearing and every concert he conducted as "echt himmlisch".  0:) 

Some of these good ladies acted as if they might have even had a certain physiological reaction during his concerts, so exorbitant was their praise.  And they were taking a one-way 2-hour train trip to the concert!

But that's a groupie behavior!

[TheGSMoeller]

Just arrived today, will get a chance later to spin it. But read the booklet with a very informative write up on the 3rd by Stephen Johnson. I took pics of it to share (how clever I am).
He reveals there are a possible 9 versions of the symphony, and is in-depth with the Wagner inspirations of the piece. Also discusses non-Wagner influences of the 3rd, such as Bruckner's own mother.


Ok, here is the link to my blog where I've uploaded the booklet pics.