Bruckner's Abbey

[TheGSMoeller]

Thanks for the relies Drasko, Soapy and Brian. The MP3 is only $4 on Amazon so I may splurge for an overpriced sample, but I agree that Fischer/BFO make a great combo, I do love their Brahms 1st which is also quite hasty.

[TheGSMoeller]

Have now listened to it.  Thoroughly enjoyable.   Playing is top-notch, as is the (SACD) sound quality.  Didn't find much that was controversial about the interpretation.  A bit brisker than some, sure, in places, but not to any detrimental effect, and otherwise well within the range of what might be considered standard.  A fine, enthusiastic performance that communicates well the virtues of Bruckner's music.

Great! Thanks for the comments, Soapy!

[André]

One of the most stimulating versions of the 7th I know is by Carl Schuricht with the Hague Orchestra (which sounded rather terrible at the time). It boasted first two movements clocking in around 19 minutes. Fear not, for tempi in Bruckner are among the most elastic, enduring and versatile around, while retaining the distinct personality of the music. I will make an effort to obtain this if it's not outrageously pricey.

[Cato]

One of the most stimulating versions of the 7th I know is by Carl Schuricht with the Hague Orchestra (which sounded rather terrible at the time). It boasted first two movements clocking in around 19 minutes. Fear not, for tempi in Bruckner are among the most elastic, enduring and versatile around, while retaining the distinct personality of the music. I will make an effort to obtain this if it's not outrageously pricey.

Hi Andre'!  Yes, Carl Schuricht is always a great bet, even if the orchestra is not!   

[Drasko]

One of the most stimulating versions of the 7th I know is by Carl Schuricht with the Hague Orchestra (which sounded rather terrible at the time). It boasted first two movements clocking in around 19 minutes. Fear not, for tempi in Bruckner are among the most elastic, enduring and versatile around, while retaining the distinct personality of the music.

Exactly, my favorite 7th, Boulez, is also under 19 minutes in first two movements and it feels just right to me.

There are slow performances than still manage to sound rushed, and fast ones that take all the time they need.  This seems to me a good example of the latter.

Agreed. I always felt that if the conductor allows players proper time for articulation and observes the breathing points, not to be 'pregnant pauses' but to be there, overall tempo can be quite fast but not feel rushed.

[Brian]

I will make an effort to obtain this if it's not outrageously pricey.

Including shipping, about US $19.

[Sergeant Rock]

Agreed. I always felt that if the conductor allows players proper time for articulation and observes the breathing points, not to be 'pregnant pauses' but to be there, overall tempo can be quite fast but not feel rushed.

You must not have heard Norrington's Seventh. His first movement makes Fischer sound like Celi: 14:55

[André]

Fifth symphony: my all-time favourite has for decades been the New Philharmonia by Klemperer. On a German Electrola vinyl set, not the various incarnations issued by EMI on cd. It may sound persnickety, but it is not. My ears tell me there is a (small) world of difference between the crystal clear sounds of the vinyl and the slightly airless ones of the cd (2 incarnations, including that of the latest batch of Klemperer big boxes).

Well, I have finallly found one that trumps this legendary performance: it'a also played by the New Philharmonia and directed by ... Klemperer. It's a March 1967 concert perfromance taped in pellucid sound in the Royal Festival Hall, London. Issued on the Testament label. The sonics are magnificent: slightly more concert-hall like than the winds-dominated textures achieved in studio by the EMI team in Kingsway Hall. All told the timing is 2 minutes shorter, which helps impart a sense of inexorability to the music making. Textures are more etched and a tad brassier, giving a razor-sharp, breath-catching feeling to the big climaxes. Timpani, too are more present and sonorous, without the overwhelming onslaught favoured by some less keen-eared maestros. Timps were the one unsatisfying aspect of the EMI recording.

I can't think of a more satisfying orchestral sound than this for that work. In its adequation to the music it reminds me of the fabulous Stein WP 2nd, Keilberth BPO 6th or the Giulini WP 7th. Amplitude of gesture allied to airiness of soundstage and powerful utterances from the main orchestral brigades (strings and brass) are what make great Bruckner textures. You need that kind of combination for a slow, patient and purposeful direction to make its full effect.

[Cato]

Fifth symphony: my all-time favourite has for decades been the New Philharmonia by Klemperer. On a German Electrola vinyl set, not the various incarnations issued by EMI on cd. It may sound persnickety, but it is not. My ears tell me there is a (small) world of difference between the crystal clear sounds of the vinyl and the slightly airless ones of the cd (2 incarnations, including that of the latest batch of Klemperer big boxes).

Well, I have finallly found one that trumps this legendary performance: it'a also played by the New Philharmonia and directed by ... Klemperer. It's a March 1967 concert perfromance taped in pellucid sound in the Royal Festival Hall, London. Issued on the Testament label. The sonics are magnificent: slightly more concert-hall like than the winds-dominated textures achieved in studio by the EMI team in Kingsway Hall. All told the timing is 2 minutes shorter, which helps impart a sense of inexorability to the music making. Textures are more etched and a tad brassier, giving a razor-sharp, breath-catching feeling to the big climaxes. Timpani, too are more present and sonorous, without the overwhelming onslaught favoured by some less keen-eared maestros. Timps were the one unsatisfying aspect of the EMI recording.

I can't think of a more satisfying orchestral sound than this for that work. In its adequation to the music it reminds me of the fabulous Stein WP 2nd, Keilberth BPO 6th or the Giulini WP 7th. Amplitude of gesture allied to airiness of soundstage and powerful utterances from the main orchestral brigades (strings and brass) are what make great Bruckner textures. You need that kind of combination for a slow, patient and purposeful direction to make its full effect.

Many thanks for the information on these performances!

Concerning Klemperer and the Fifth Symphony: Many moons ago, I listened to one of his Angel records with the Fifth, and thought the performance was rather peppy for Klemperer, but also that it was in the wrong key, according to my score!

After the first movement concluded, I discovered that my sister had changed the speed on our stereo to 45 rpm!   0:)

[André]

Only with Cato..

[Ken B]

Many thanks for the information on these performances!

Concerning Klemperer and the Fifth Symphony: Many moons ago, I listened to one of his Angel records with the Fifth, and thought the performance was rather peppy for Klemperer, but also that it was in the wrong key, according to my score!

After the first movement concluded, I discovered that my sister had changed the speed on our stereo to 45 rpm!   0:)

Oh crap. You mean I didn't have to burn that St Matthew Passion?

[André]

How did you 'burn' it ?

[Ken B]

How did you 'burn' it ?

[Brian]

I wonder if anyone would like to chew on and respond to Georg Tintner's criticism of the Sixth Symphony:

"The Finale starts interestingly enough. A rather austere tune in the violins is seconded by the second clarinet. After its repeat in the subdominant it is rudely interrupted by the trumpets and horns, who assert the main key in a very loud and rhythmical fashion. The whole orchestra then plays a new brass tune full of semitones and brings forth-another rather heroic melody. After all these monumental utterances a charming, dance-like melody beguiles us. Then over a soft major chord in the horns, the oboes and clarinets introduce a new tune as from far away (it is a distant relation to the oboe lament in the second movement, but here is in major). Bruckner must have been in love with this melody, but the more often it appears, the richer and louder it is orchestrated and (it seems to me) the more banal It becomes. Now the first tune is played considerably slower by the celli accompanied by the trombones, the second violins also in the slower tempo play the main tune, richly embroidered, in a remote key. The brass tunes are also slower here until the whole orchestra asserts the main key once more in the faster, original tempo. After a rather virtuosic passage in the violins (a rarity in Bruckner's works) the charming country tune reappears in the home key. The final loud and rhythmical assertion of the main key appears rather unexpectedly and perhaps not quite convincingly. Not even the quotation of the main tune of the first movement in the trombones can obliterate a feeling of slight dissatisfaction. So in the Sixth Symphony we have three perfect movements and one that is somewhat problematical - at least to me."

From the Naxos album liner notes

[kishnevi]

That would probably the theme which I think of as an outake from Lawrence of Arabia. Colin Davis makes it truly banal on his LSO recording.

[EigenUser]

I wonder if anyone would like to chew on and respond to Georg Tintner's criticism of the Sixth Symphony:

"The Finale starts interestingly enough. A rather austere tune in the violins is seconded by the second clarinet. After its repeat in the subdominant it is rudely interrupted by the trumpets and horns, who assert the main key in a very loud and rhythmical fashion. The whole orchestra then plays a new brass tune full of semitones and brings forth-another rather heroic melody. After all these monumental utterances a charming, dance-like melody beguiles us. Then over a soft major chord in the horns, the oboes and clarinets introduce a new tune as from far away (it is a distant relation to the oboe lament in the second movement, but here is in major). Bruckner must have been in love with this melody, but the more often it appears, the richer and louder it is orchestrated and (it seems to me) the more banal It becomes. Now the first tune is played considerably slower by the celli accompanied by the trombones, the second violins also in the slower tempo play the main tune, richly embroidered, in a remote key. The brass tunes are also slower here until the whole orchestra asserts the main key once more in the faster, original tempo. After a rather virtuosic passage in the violins (a rarity in Bruckner's works) the charming country tune reappears in the home key. The final loud and rhythmical assertion of the main key appears rather unexpectedly and perhaps not quite convincingly. Not even the quotation of the main tune of the first movement in the trombones can obliterate a feeling of slight dissatisfaction. So in the Sixth Symphony we have three perfect movements and one that is somewhat problematical - at least to me."

From the Naxos album liner notes

I'm probably in the minority, but I felt similarly after hearing the piece today. I loved the first movement. After hearing the second, I loved it just as much, possibly more. I liked the third, but not as much as the first two. Then, the fourth... I was a little bit let down. It was good, but the first three movements set up much more than the last delivered. The theme from the first movement seemed thrown in as an afterthought, as did that repeated rhythm from the first movement (you know the one I'm talking about...). Overall, I really loved the piece though. Maybe the last movement will grow on me.

[Cato]

That would probably the theme which I think of as an outtake from Lawrence of Arabia. Colin Davis makes it truly banal on his LSO recording.

Interesting: that record made me think of the theme as from a Cecil B. DeMille Biblical epic! 

"Die Sechste ist die Keckste!" i.e.

"The Sixth is the sauciest!" said Bruckner once.  Apparently he knew that it could be considered very "cheeky."   

Certainly the Finale can seem episodic, a crazy-quilt, ADHD version of a symphonic Finale.  But such "cheekiness" is heard earlier, although not too much (or at all) in the slow movement.  This is a movement where the cohesiveness lays not in the main themes, but in the contrapuntal and rhythmical unconscious of the score.  Conductors who ignore that, and let the main themes be emphasized at the expense of these other factors, will therefore be emphasizing the episodic aspects.

[Ken B]

I wonder if anyone would like to chew on and respond to Georg Tintner's criticism of the Sixth Symphony:

"The Finale starts interestingly enough. A rather austere tune in the violins is seconded by the second clarinet. After its repeat in the subdominant it is rudely interrupted by the trumpets and horns, who assert the main key in a very loud and rhythmical fashion. The whole orchestra then plays a new brass tune full of semitones and brings forth-another rather heroic melody. After all these monumental utterances a charming, dance-like melody beguiles us. Then over a soft major chord in the horns, the oboes and clarinets introduce a new tune as from far away (it is a distant relation to the oboe lament in the second movement, but here is in major). Bruckner must have been in love with this melody, but the more often it appears, the richer and louder it is orchestrated and (it seems to me) the more banal It becomes. Now the first tune is played considerably slower by the celli accompanied by the trombones, the second violins also in the slower tempo play the main tune, richly embroidered, in a remote key. The brass tunes are also slower here until the whole orchestra asserts the main key once more in the faster, original tempo. After a rather virtuosic passage in the violins (a rarity in Bruckner's works) the charming country tune reappears in the home key. The final loud and rhythmical assertion of the main key appears rather unexpectedly and perhaps not quite convincingly. Not even the quotation of the main tune of the first movement in the trombones can obliterate a feeling of slight dissatisfaction. So in the Sixth Symphony we have three perfect movements and one that is somewhat problematical - at least to me."

From the Naxos album liner notes

Yup. Last movement ... Inhales strongly and steadily.

[André]

This week I listened to 3 recordings of the Sixth symphony

- Günter Wand and the Kölner RSO.  Part of the RCA Wand Cologne integral set.
- Heinz Rögner and the RSO Berlin on Brilliant, part of an integral set.
- Bernard Haitink and the Sttatskapelle Dresden, a Profil disc from a live concert.

Amazing how diffferent these discs sound. Not just a question of recording (excellent), but tone production from the orchestras and, I suppose, the conductor's balances.

- By far the most 'familiar' sound comes from the Cologne orchestra (recorded in the Bismarck Saal, not the Philharmonie - their current venue). Attacks are bold yet rounded, a certain level of trenchancy is on display troughout and all sections interact and dovetail each other neatly. Wand's tempi are brisk, to the point, his phrasing well-moulded yet always alert. A classic account, full of life and brucknerian stamina. 9/10

- Then there is the oddball Rögner coming in with his bagful of tricks and treats.  I love the way everything coheres despite a vagarious assemblage of tempi, fluctuations thereof, dynamic fineness and masterly moulding of orchestral balances. This is a capricious, 'kechste' 6th. Bold, dynamic, loving yet love-seeking, full of 'meaningful' twists and turns. The orchestra follows the lead like one man and produce a very different sound from Cologne. There are dovetailings and sonic overlaps whereas in Cologne everything is line-and-paragraph neat. I hesitate between 8.5 and 9/10.

Then there is Haitink with the frankly overdressed and overweight Dresden  Staatskapelle. I'm absolutely not against the weight and bulk on display here. But I prefer Keilberth's abrasiveness (with the similarly endowed BPO). But it's all so musically done. Haitink continues to adhere to classic, flowing yet thoughtful tempi. Unimpeachable in that respect. It's just that the slimness, trimness of what must have been a true brucknerian orchestra ca. 1900 is nowhere in sight. Musically it's an excellent version. 8.5/10. I still prefer his earlier Concertgebouw interpretation.

For the record: my 10/10 versions are (in no particular order) : Swoboda, Keilberth, Stein, Bongartz, the two Leitners. Then (9/10): Wand Cologne, Keilberth, Klemperer BBC and maybe the clolourful Rögner.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Finding more and more to like in Dohnanyi's Bruckner. It's not as lyrical as Chailly's, more in the Jochum/architecture mould. Though its scale is pared down.