Bruckner's Abbey

[André]

Sixth symphony under Günter Wand again, this time one of the live performances from Hamburg with the NDR Orchestra. Very different from the excellent Kölner Rundfunk recording. Longer, bigger contoured, edges rounded off, phrasing moulded, with a distincly buttery flavour. Not to my liking, but extremely polished. Hard to voice criticism, but to me it's a let down.

[André]

2 other versions of the sixth to ponder:

- First, one of the most thoughtful, elegiac yet powerful, where everything is in such perfect balance that never does one pause to think or argue about the tempi or the phrasing. Indeed if I recall correctly it is one of the favourtes of my Bruckner mentor Nigel: Ferdinand Leitner and the Basel (Switzerland) Symphony Orchestra (on Accord, 1992). At 62 minutes it is one of the longest recorded performances. Yet, it never feels long - spacious maybe, but gloriously carried out. One of the best, after Bongartz, Keilberth, Leitner in Baden-Baden, Stein, Swoboda. These are my top 5. Then the Leitner Basel, Kegel and this one:

Otto Klemperer in Amsterdam, June 61. A study in contrasts: the slowest start to I ever (by far) and the swiftest Adagio. Yet everything balances and coheres. Good sound (live recording). Possibly the most characterful of the 3 Klemperer performances I know (EMI Philharmonia and Testament BBC).

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I wonder if anyone would like to chew on and respond to Georg Tintner's criticism of the Sixth Symphony:

"The Finale starts interestingly enough. A rather austere tune in the violins is seconded by the second clarinet. After its repeat in the subdominant it is rudely interrupted by the trumpets and horns, who assert the main key in a very loud and rhythmical fashion. The whole orchestra then plays a new brass tune full of semitones and brings forth-another rather heroic melody. After all these monumental utterances a charming, dance-like melody beguiles us. Then over a soft major chord in the horns, the oboes and clarinets introduce a new tune as from far away (it is a distant relation to the oboe lament in the second movement, but here is in major). Bruckner must have been in love with this melody, but the more often it appears, the richer and louder it is orchestrated and (it seems to me) the more banal It becomes. Now the first tune is played considerably slower by the celli accompanied by the trombones, the second violins also in the slower tempo play the main tune, richly embroidered, in a remote key. The brass tunes are also slower here until the whole orchestra asserts the main key once more in the faster, original tempo. After a rather virtuosic passage in the violins (a rarity in Bruckner's works) the charming country tune reappears in the home key. The final loud and rhythmical assertion of the main key appears rather unexpectedly and perhaps not quite convincingly. Not even the quotation of the main tune of the first movement in the trombones can obliterate a feeling of slight dissatisfaction. So in the Sixth Symphony we have three perfect movements and one that is somewhat problematical - at least to me."

From the Naxos album liner notes

I can't add anything musicological-wise to counter Tintner's criticism but the finale of the 6th has no adverse affects on me. It's Bruckner after all. In fact, after finishing the Dohnanyi performance the other night I put on Chailly's finale just for kicks and couldn't turn it off!

[TheGSMoeller]

I can't add anything musicological-wise to counter Tintner's criticism but the finale of the 6th has no adverse affects on me. It's Bruckner after all. In fact, after finishing the Dohnanyi performance the other night I put on Chailly's finale just for kicks and couldn't turn it off!

I think the finale of the 6th is far more interesting than problematic. Perhaps the movement is a bit of an enigma, but that intrigues me and to me it feels like a collaboration of the previous three movements featuring moments of majestic blaze from the Maestoso and poetic beauty of the Adagio. It is in fact this finale that truly aids the 6th in standing out as Bruckner's best. I do love all of his symphonies, and finales, but there's a certain drive and force behind the 6th finale that is unique.

And I was sad to see Chailly get booted from the Blind Comparison, his rendition of the finale is thrilling.

[Brian]

And I was sad to see Chailly get booted from the Blind Comparison, his rendition of the finale is thrilling.

Uh, if Chailly's first movement is still uploaded somewhere, I'd like to hear it. I did not get to vote on it, methinks.

[TheGSMoeller]

In all my years of listening there have been performances which have literally moved the earth beneath me, sapped all the oxygen from my lungs (temporarily ), flooded me with excitement, and whisked me through some E.T.-like musical wormhole into whatever dimension lay in waiting.

But to this day I've never had a performance threaten me with what I suspect must be some Holy Rite since it happens so frequently to others yet somehow has been completely out of reach for me: the jerking loose of a tear.

Dang if it ain't the truth. Not anything on a fountain-like level mind you but this very evening my eyes welled up like they never have before. All brought to me by the good folks of the Vienna PO with Boulez holding the golden reins. 

Can't give higher praise than that for this mighty performance. 




[asin]B00004TL2N[/asin]

Spectacular performance, DD. For a good while was the only 8th I really listened to, now Wand/Berlin is in that mix. But I think the coherency of Boulez' direction is almost unmatched with the 8th.

[TheGSMoeller]

Uh, if Chailly's first movement is still uploaded somewhere, I'd like to hear it. I did not get to vote on it, methinks.

PM 

[calyptorhynchus]

I wonder if anyone would like to chew on and respond to Georg Tintner's criticism of the Sixth Symphony:

"The Finale starts interestingly enough. A rather austere tune in the violins is seconded by the second clarinet. After its repeat in the subdominant it is rudely interrupted by the trumpets and horns, who assert the main key in a very loud and rhythmical fashion. The whole orchestra then plays a new brass tune full of semitones and brings forth-another rather heroic melody. After all these monumental utterances a charming, dance-like melody beguiles us. Then over a soft major chord in the horns, the oboes and clarinets introduce a new tune as from far away (it is a distant relation to the oboe lament in the second movement, but here is in major). Bruckner must have been in love with this melody, but the more often it appears, the richer and louder it is orchestrated and (it seems to me) the more banal It becomes. Now the first tune is played considerably slower by the celli accompanied by the trombones, the second violins also in the slower tempo play the main tune, richly embroidered, in a remote key. The brass tunes are also slower here until the whole orchestra asserts the main key once more in the faster, original tempo. After a rather virtuosic passage in the violins (a rarity in Bruckner's works) the charming country tune reappears in the home key. The final loud and rhythmical assertion of the main key appears rather unexpectedly and perhaps not quite convincingly. Not even the quotation of the main tune of the first movement in the trombones can obliterate a feeling of slight dissatisfaction. So in the Sixth Symphony we have three perfect movements and one that is somewhat problematical - at least to me."

From the Naxos album liner notes

Pretty sad that Tinter thinks of symphonic movements as successions of tunes. Surprising his interpretations sound as good as they do.

[aukhawk]

I'm probably in the minority, but I felt similarly after hearing the piece today. I loved the first movement. After hearing the second, I loved it just as much, possibly more. I liked the third, but not as much as the first two. Then, the fourth... I was a little bit let down. ...

You know - if you're listening to a recording, you can always lift the needle when you get to the bit you don't like.

Not so easy if you're sitting in the concert hall.

[Cato]

I think the finale of the 6th is far more interesting than problematic. Perhaps the movement is a bit of an enigma, but that intrigues me and to me it feels like a collaboration of the previous three movements featuring moments of majestic blaze from the Maestoso and poetic beauty of the Adagio. It is in fact this finale that truly aids the 6th in standing out as Bruckner's best. I do love all of his symphonies, and finales, but there's a certain drive and force behind the 6th finale that is unique.

Yes to the above points especially!

"Drive and force" also describe the First Symphony as well!  (Not that the others are lacking in those qualities!)

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I think the finale of the 6th is far more interesting than problematic. Perhaps the movement is a bit of an enigma, but that intrigues me and to me it feels like a collaboration of the previous three movements featuring moments of majestic blaze from the Maestoso and poetic beauty of the Adagio. It is in fact this finale that truly aids the 6th in standing out as Bruckner's best. I do love all of his symphonies, and finales, but there's a certain drive and force behind the 6th finale that is unique.

I agree about the enigma part. That's what draws me to his music in general. It's either I take the music on its own terms or go home. And as far as the finale of the 6th, I had no idea when I was enjoying it (twice!) the other night that I was in error. I should make that mistake again!

And I was sad to see Chailly get booted from the Blind Comparison, his rendition of the finale is thrilling.

I saw that. But listening to the finale the other night I think I can see why. Chailly's rendition is principally lyrical, at least compared to the more extrovert Jochum/EMI and Dohnanyi I have. Lyricism can sometimes be mistaken for reticence and in a "competition setting" reticence won't get anyone very far. Chailly's patient, lyrical mood painting takes time to digest, and such an approach is pretty much anathema to competitions (just a theory...no flaming, please).

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Spectacular performance, DD. For a good while was the only 8th I really listened to, now Wand/Berlin is in that mix. But I think the coherency of Boulez' direction is almost unmatched with the 8th.

Yes, the work must've been close Boulez's heart. You can hear it. And the VPO play as if their next meal depended on it.

[amw]

I listened to Chailly's first movement and liked it. Of course I also liked Russell Davies who was almost everyone else's least favourite, and I thought Colin Davis's LSO recording was close to ideal, apart from the final chord which is a disgrace. (That is a staccato mark Colin you dunderhead! >.>) So what my opinion of classics like Jochum and Wand will turn out to be is anyone's guess.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I listened to Chailly's first movement and liked it. Of course I also liked Russell Davies who was almost everyone else's least favourite, and I thought Colin Davis's LSO recording was close to ideal, apart from the final chord which is a disgrace. (That is a staccato mark Colin you dunderhead! >.>) So what my opinion of classics like Jochum and Wand will turn out to be is anyone's guess.

Chailly makes great work of two of the early symphonies, too. His recordings of the 1st and 3rd are fabulous.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

The 5th has been a tough nut to crack for me. My listening had never really made it beyond the tolerance stage in the past, at least for the first 3/4ths of the work. But looking back in this thread there'd been some pretty high praise for Dohnanyi's 5th with the Clevelanders. Wondered if it would be worth it to take the plunge...might be just the thing to make me a Believer.

Bought the disc...listening time in the can...and...

...let the metaphors fly........like a butterfly first encountering fresh air after popping its cocoon, zot it's alive! And boy is the conversion on. What a performance. 'Nuff said.
 





   

[Cato]

The 5th has been a tough nut to crack for me. My listening had never really made it beyond the tolerance stage in the past, at least for the first 3/4ths of the work. But looking back in this thread there'd been some pretty high praise for Dohnanyi's 5th with the Clevelanders. Wondered if it would be worth it to take the plunge...might be just the thing to make me a Believer.

Bought the disc...listening time in the can...and...

...let the metaphors fly........like a butterfly first encountering fresh air after popping its cocoon, zot it's alive! And boy is the conversion on. What a performance. 'Nuff said.

I had the great fortune to hear them play the work at a concert, and it was a great experience hearing not just those last pages of the Finale, but every page! 

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I had the great fortune to hear them play the work at a concert, and it was a great experience hearing not just those last pages of the Finale, but every page! 

The CD made me stand up and pay attention to the entire work, too. I can only guess that hearing it live would only quadruple the pleasure.  

So I've now been bitten by the Bruckner/Dohnányi/Cleveland bug. So far Dohnányi's 5th and 6th have proved first-rate. The Hurwitzer gives his 3rd and 8th high marks (though Sarge finds the 8th unsatisfying) so they're next on my listening agenda. The 7th and 9th won't be far behind.

[TheGSMoeller]

The 5th has been a tough nut to crack for me. My listening had never really made it beyond the tolerance stage in the past, at least for the first 3/4ths of the work. But looking back in this thread there'd been some pretty high praise for Dohnanyi's 5th with the Clevelanders. Wondered if it would be worth it to take the plunge...might be just the thing to make me a Believer.

Bought the disc...listening time in the can...and...

...let the metaphors fly........like a butterfly first encountering fresh air after popping its cocoon, zot it's alive! And boy is the conversion on. What a performance. 'Nuff said.
 

The 5th is amazing. I strongly believe it's the most unique of Bruckner's symphonies. There's a slight disjointed feel throughout the first and final movements, and not in a bad way, but rather the music seems to be exploring all possible directions thus creating many different tempos and presentation of themes. To me it's quite enigmatic, but all within some of Bruckner's most beautiful melodies, expertly written harmonies and instrumentation. The finale is a masterpiece in itself. I particularly like how it doesn't shoot right out of a canon with its opening themes (Symphonies 3 & 8 ) or even become fully charged within the first few minutes (Symphonies 2, 4 & 6). It reveals its pieces one at a time, the soft string opening, the calling of the solo clarinet, the intense initial fugue and so on. Finally about a third into it arrives the majestic brass chorale which seems to finally put into motion the placing of all the layers together. This leads into an incredible fusion of the fugue and chorale eventually bringing the most massive of the composer's codas.
The Dohnanyi/Cleveland 5th is a special disc, which I can also say about that combo's 3rd, 4th, 6th and 9th recordings. Sinopoli, Chailly, Skrowaczewski, Harnoncourt and Barenboim also have must hear performances on disc. Barenboim's fast-paced finale coda (very similar to Furtwangler) has really grabbed my ears and has almost become a preference. But listen to how Skrowaczewski changes the coda slightly by putting the Horns up an octave when the coda begins, it's incredibly effective and makes me wonder why more conductors don't include it. I recently purchased Dennis Russell Davies/Bruckner Linz disc of the 5th and it's surprisingly very good. Davies adds a few touches that intrigue me. The Adagio is closer to a walking stride when compared to the outer movements, it flows very nicely and adds a lighter feel to the overall pacing of the symphony after Davies' leisurely heavy opener. Another is at the final bars when the timpani roll accompanies the final orchestral buttons, Davies slows the tempo waaayyyydown to really add emphasis to these final chords.

I had the great fortune to hear them play the work at a concert, and it was a great experience hearing not just those last pages of the Finale, but every page! 

That's awesome, Cato!

[calyptorhynchus]

A very witty friend of mine once, when we were listening to the 5th, listened patiently, but with cocked eyebrow, to the coda thundering away and when it had ended, said very quietly, "I think that's B flat".

[Dancing Divertimentian]

The 5th is amazing. I strongly believe it's the most unique of Bruckner's symphonies. There's a slight disjointed feel throughout the first and final movements, and not in a bad way, but rather the music seems to be exploring all possible directions thus creating many different tempos and presentation of themes. To me it's quite enigmatic, but all within some of Bruckner's most beautiful melodies, expertly written harmonies and instrumentation. The finale is a masterpiece in itself. I particularly like how it doesn't shoot right out of a canon with its opening themes (Symphonies 3 & 8 ) or even become fully charged within the first few minutes (Symphonies 2, 4 & 6). It reveals its pieces one at a time, the soft string opening, the calling of the solo clarinet, the intense initial fugue and so on. Finally about a third into it arrives the majestic brass chorale which seems to finally put into motion the placing of all the layers together. This leads into an incredible fusion of the fugue and chorale eventually bringing the most massive of the composer's codas.

Wonderful breakdown, GS.

The Dohnanyi/Cleveland 5th is a special disc, which I can also say about that combo's 3rd, 4th, 6th and 9th recordings. Sinopoli, Chailly, Skrowaczewski, Harnoncourt and Barenboim also have must hear performances on disc. Barenboim's fast-paced finale coda (very similar to Furtwangler) has really grabbed my ears and has almost become a preference. But listen to how Skrowaczewski changes the coda slightly by putting the Horns up an octave when the coda begins, it's incredibly effective and makes me wonder why more conductors don't include it. I recently purchased Dennis Russell Davies/Bruckner Linz disc of the 5th and it's surprisingly very good. Davies adds a few touches that intrigue me. The Adagio is closer to a walking stride when compared to the outer movements, it flows very nicely and adds a lighter feel to the overall pacing of the symphony after Davies' leisurely heavy opener. Another is at the final bars when the timpani roll accompanies the final orchestral buttons, Davies slows the tempo waaayyyydown to really add emphasis to these final chords.

Along with Dohnányi's I have 5ths from Chailly, Thielemann, and Jochum/EMI. Even with these heavy hitters the work (for the most part) remained out of reach for me. I had high hopes for Sinopoli's 5th, which is on Youtube, but still no progress. I do like the idea of Harnoncourt, though. May have to look into that one now that the 5th is growing on me.

I did manage to start in on Dohnányi's 3rd the other night but got interrupted. But for one-and-a-half movements I was spellbound. Can't wait to finish it.