Bruckner's Abbey

[Cato]

They certainly are around.
[asin]B0009I7ONO[/asin] [asin]B0079J26S4[/asin]

Good to know!  I remember his record of the Ninth because even through two little 6" stereo speakers  it made a big impact on me in the good old days.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Many thanks for the review!  I will look into these recordings!  Your description of the Dohnanyi/Cleveland reminds me of comments made about the conductor Carl Schuricht and his Bruckner style.  You might look into a Schuricht Ninth, if it is around these days.

Much obliged for that! I'll definitely look into the Schuricht. And his 8 and 9 are on Youtube, so looking forward to auditioning!

[TheGSMoeller]

Much obliged for that! I'll definitely look into the Schuricht. And his 8 and 9 are on Youtube, so looking forward to auditioning!

And on Spotify, which I just saved this disc into my playlist. 

[Dancing Divertimentian]

And on Spotify, which I just saved this disc into my playlist. 

[André]

Been listening to the ultra cheap st by Roberto Paternostro and the Württemburgisch Philharmonie Reutlingen, recorded in Basilika Weingarten.

To make things clear : Württemburgische means from Württemberg, a southern region of Germany. Reutlingen is a 100000 plus city of that region where the symphony orchestra plays. And Weingarten is the city where the orchestra records in the town's cathedral.

Be that as it may, I am about 1/3 of the way into the set and some very definite characteristics emerge.

- versions: Paterostro favours the later, familiar versions. No discoveries here.
- interpretation: the conductor plays the works in a very 'natural' fashion. He tailors the 'déroulement' (unfolding) of the phrases and paragraphs to suit the characteristics of the recorded venue. Everything is live. You know that only when, after a few seconds of silence, moderate expression of enthusiasm emerges in the form of clapping hands. Were these good townfolks gagged and bound as the music played ?
- execution: I did not detect deficiencies, except that timpani are somewhat gentle (anti-karajanesque) and horns diffident rather than prominent, clearly a matter of microphone placement. Strings are quite to the fore compared to the rest of the orchestra.
-- sound: this is a looooong reverb venue. I would say it flatters Bruckner's orchestration for those who do not normally like Bruckner. Very much Simmons Beautyrest textures and sound.

Overall, I'd say this is a VERY unusual take on Bruckner's soundworld, thanks to the orchestra and recording venue characteristics. I throughly enjoyed what I heard so far. No eccentricities, just the sheer pleasure of accommodating a much-loved set of ingredients with the local smoky sauce and sweet spices.

[Wanderer]

Listening to WPR/Paternostro's Bruckner on Spotify and your comments are spot-on.

Were these good townfolks gagged and bound as the music played ?

Probably. Hope it catches on.

[jlaurson]

Everything is live. You know that only when, after a few seconds of silence, moderate expression of enthusiasm emerges in the form of clapping hands. Were these good townfolks gagged and bound as the music played ?

There's a habit, in Germany (and beyond, I reckon), to not clap in church after a concert. In fact, at the famous BRSO concerts at the basilica in Ottobeuren (Mozart Mass in C minor with Lenny on DVD, for example; lots of Bruckner; I heard Bruckner 5 with Blomstedt there, some years ago), they explicitly ask you not to clap. Just appreciate it. Let the music dissipate... and then the bells will ring. It's a MUCH more satisfying experience, that way. I, for one, don't clap in churches either... no matter who is playing or what format it is in. It's just so tacky. So... not done.

In any case, I reckon that that natural hesitation collided with the instinct to clap after the music over... resulting in the neitherfishnorfowl applause you are hearing on those recordings.

[Cato]

There's a habit, in Germany (and beyond, I reckon), to not clap in church after a concert.

When the Toledo Symphony plays their annual Bruckner concert in the local Catholic cathedral, the audience quite definitely applauds and has given standing ovations.

Many thanks to Andre' for the review of that set: I have wondered about it.

[jlaurson]

When the Toledo Symphony plays their annual Bruckner concert in the local Catholic cathedral, the audience quite definitely applauds and has given standing ovations.

Many thanks to Andre' for the review of that set: I have wondered about it.

Americans, even Catholics, have a very different, much less history-and-tradition-and-rigor-laden relationship with churches... That I'm not a fan of clapping in churches (and that it's not super common in much of central Europe) is a result of an arbitrary code of conduct; my severe dislike of it not a judgment on it, simply a description of habit and expectation.

[Cato]

Americans, even Catholics, have a very different, much less history-and-tradition-and-rigor-laden relationship with churches... That I'm not a fan of clapping in churches (and that it's not super common in much of central Europe) is a result of an arbitrary code of conduct; my severe dislike of it not a judgment on it, simply a description of habit and expectation.

Oh yes!  Especially after 1965, the  Catholic Church in America became much less formal: the understanding from the  Bishop(s) of Toledo (there have been two since the tradition started, and a third has been installed now) is that the tabernacle is empty during the concerts, and so a slightly less formal atmosphere is allowed.

Staying silent, however, would be fine with me, but I understand the enthusiasm after hearing a great performance of BRUCKNER !!!   

(And I think  0:) Divinity  0:) approves!)

[MishaK]

There's a habit, in Germany (and beyond, I reckon), to not clap in church after a concert. In fact, at the famous BRSO concerts at the basilica in Ottobeuren (Mozart Mass in C minor with Lenny on DVD, for example; lots of Bruckner; I heard Bruckner 5 with Blomstedt there, some years ago), they explicitly ask you not to clap. Just appreciate it. Let the music dissipate... and then the bells will ring. It's a MUCH more satisfying experience, that way. I, for one, don't clap in churches either... no matter who is playing or what format it is in. It's just so tacky. So... not done.

That doesn't match my experience. At the Rheingau Musikfestival at the Kloster Eberbach there definitely was plenty of applause at the end of each performance of Inbal's Bruckner cycle with the WDR, for example. Plenty of clapping here too for Giulini at the same venue:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUe6r9UcIkw

[Pat B]

Americans, even Catholics, have a very different, much less history-and-tradition-and-rigor-laden relationship with churches... That I'm not a fan of clapping in churches (and that it's not super common in much of central Europe) is a result of an arbitrary code of conduct; my severe dislike of it not a judgment on it, simply a description of habit and expectation.

Well, "tacky" did sound a tad judgemental. But I think I know what you meant.

I would very much like to attend a performance like you described. Not the neitherfishnorfowl one, but the one where it's quiet and not awkward, and then bells.

[NJ Joe]

Or it may be a matter of time: some day things might fall together and you will wonder why you ever had trouble with the work.

A fascinating phenomenon, isn't it? Sometimes it's taken years for this to happen for me.  Sometimes I don't even listen to the piece...I just wake up one day and realize it's fallen together.

The reverse of this happens as well. I'll listen to a piece that had flowed easily and now have trouble with it. 

[NJ Joe]

I'm making great headway with this 5th and, as a matter of fact, the entire box.

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[Mirror Image]

I'm making great headway with this 5th and, as a matter of fact, the entire box.

[asin]B005HYNCTK[/asin]

Great stuff, Joe. I really like Celibidache's approach to Bruckner. As slow as it may be (for some), I still find this partial cycle to be some of the most intense Bruckner performances around.

[Brian]

Regret to inform that I listened to the 8th again today (Klemperer) and the two outer movements still left me cold. I continue to love the Adagio, and the scherzo is seeming more straightforward, but the first movement doesn't grab me and the finale, while I recognize the impressive structural achievement, lacks emotional resonance for me.

This is an improvement over last year's listen, so, hey, progress.

Definitely keeping in mind various people's advice to try Dohnanyi in both this symphony and the 5th, the other "tough nut" I am failing to crack.

Maybe tomorrow I'll listen to the Ninth for the first time in 6-7 years. No reason I waited so long on that one, except wanting to save a big discovery for later on.

[Jo498]

While I still struggle with the 8th's finale (mainly because it is a damn long piece to listen to after almost an hour of music has passed already, I probably should listen to it on its own a few times) I found the first movement one of Bruckner's most accessible and also quite original with the quiet ending although in most other respects it follows his "standard model".

[André]

Klemperer's EMI B8 is a curate's egg. Klemp conducted it throughout his life but seemed to have quite definitive second thoughts about it at the end of his life. For the first time (AFAIK) he decided to excise huge chunks of the last movement, cutting it by a good third. I still tink it's a great performance, but definitively a second tier choice.

[amw]

Just finished a first listen to Sawallisch's Bruckner 6, which joins the elite category of Bruckner 6 Recordings I Will Actually Keep Once My Qobuz/Spotify/NML Subscriptions Expire

Bruckner 6

Objectively Good
Sawallisch
Stein
Leitner (Hänssler)

Subjectively Good
Norrington - subjective due to extreme fastness and nonvibrato
Eichhorn (Camerata) - subjective due to slowness and japan

Good, But Lacking A Certain Something
Celibidache
Davies
Zweden
Rozhdestvensky - a top choice but for the bad orchestral playing, poor sound quality, and inaccurate version of the score used. Basically it's the greatest bad recording of a bruckner symphony ever

Average-ish
Klemperer
Dohnányi
Nézet-Séguin

Meh
Wand (RCA)
Karajan
Chailly
Eschenbach
Jochum (EMI)
Jansons - actually forgot I listened to this one lol

I'm still having Ken B hold my place in queue for the Davies box set though.

Moving on to the 7th soon! Decided to save the 5th for later, already have 8 and 9 basically sorted

Transported over at André's suggestion.

Top 4 Sawallisch (most exciting/dramatic/generally 'complete'), Eichhorn (best slow one), Stein (grandest/most 'cosmic'), Norrington (I'm a weirdo)

Other comments - Leitner is most 'Brucknerian'/HIP, Davies everyone should listen to at least once, Wand RCA is pretty much a 'meh' until the finale (which gets progressively better until the end), Celi great but doesn't hold up as well to repeat listenings.

Klemperer's EMI B8 is a curate's egg. Klemp conducted it throughout his life but seemed to have quite definitive second thoughts about it at the end of his life. For the first time (AFAIK) he decided to excise huge chunks of the last movement, cutting it by a good third. I still tink it's a great performance, but definitively a second tier choice.

The only thing I remember about Klemperer's B8 is the 20 minute scherzo. Jesus fuck. If that had been my first exposure to the symphony I'd probably have turned it off right there. >.>

[Cato]

The DGG recording by Eugen Jochum is still my favorite: I find it as exciting as ever!

If that had been my first exposure to the symphony I'd probably have turned it off right there.

I have told the story before: in the 1960's, a Klemperer recording of Bruckner's Fifth Symphony was really enthusing me - oddly, as his conducting had always been too slow for me.

Looking at the score as I listened, it struck me that the orchestra was playing in the wrong key!  I wondered how that was possible!  Then it struck me:

The record player had been used earlier by my sister, and was set to 45 rpm!  But it really pepped up old Otto!   0:)