Bruckner's Abbey

[Jo498]

What was his intent? How about getting just getting performed and maybe just make a few $$$?

He utterly failed at this front most of the time. Some of his symphonies were premiered in versions for two pianos because he could nor raise enough money or enthusiasm.

[amw]

His innate lack of confidence led him to revisit, revise and alter his scores, mostly to the good.

Bruckner had quite a lot of confidence, although he did rely on the opinions of friends and colleagues as well -- but certainly without confidence he would never have written the way he did, and would have been trained out of his characteristic style and into something more "normal" very early.

He did, however, probably have something we'd now recognise as obsessive-compulsive disorder, which is a more likely explanation for the constant revision (especially considering how numerically focused it was) and his occasional bouts of insecurity and depression. At least, that tallies with everything I've seen in the literature.

[Jo498]

Some of his quirks like counting windows of buildings or meticulously making sure that he observed the rules for fasting days also point toward some obsessive-compulsive tics.
As he started out from a very humble situation he also craved public recognition, that's why even as a fairly experienced musician he took exams in counterpoint etc. to get official statements that he was a master of the craft.

[Parsifal]

Bruckner had quite a lot of confidence, although he did rely on the opinions of friends and colleagues as well -- but certainly without confidence he would never have written the way he did, and would have been trained out of his characteristic style and into something more "normal" very early.

There is a distinction between having confidence in your own ability and having confidence that you will receive recognition for your work.

[calyptorhynchus]

"Here's a question for everyone: what do you think Bruckner's intent was in his music? You could definitely call this music absolute music in the sense that there's no kind of program with any of the works with only the subtitle of Romantic given to Symphony No. 4 and that subtitle alone hardly tells us anything. What do you guys think the music is expressing?"

I think that Bruckner was a mystic, attuned to the energy of the universe (which he would have called "God"). This is why most of his symphonies begin with the famous string vibrato, which is an expression of the buzzing potential energy of the universe. His symphonies then explore the different expressions of this energy, the different tempi, ranging from energetic scherzi to slow movements that are very slow. But whatever the tempi he explores, they are counterpointed to the timeless tempo implied by the opening vibration. Bruckner when working on his symphonies may have had in mind certain programmes (as in the 4th) or certain programmes for parts of symphonies (as in the 8th) and he certainly referred to objective sounds like one of the calls of the Great Tit in the first movement of the 4th. And I think you can also say that different parts of his symphonies have different moods: calm and contented, mysterious, elated, even panic-stricken (parts of the Ninth). However, these are foreground to the cosmic background as it were.

I meant tremolos

[PerfectWagnerite]

There is a distinction between having confidence in your own ability and having confidence that you will receive recognition for your work.

Exactly, and what do composers want more than anything else: to get their works PERFORMED, or else why publish them? Bruckner was going to do anything: re-orchestrating, chopping, others rewriting, anything to his works performed. During his time these were works that were tediously long, requiring vast orchestral forces that the run-of-the mill orchestras just couldn't do.

And he did receive recognition for his work, the 7th symphony was an unqualified success and the 8th while not as lionized was premiered by a major orchestra.

[Mirror Image]

What does everyone think of Haitink's Bruckner cycle?



I've owned this set for years, but I don't think I've listened to it all that much. Any standout performances?

[PerfectWagnerite]

What does everyone think of Haitink's Bruckner cycle?



I've owned this set for years, but I don't think I've listened to it all that much. Any standout performances?

Not really.  Sorry, a pretty superfluous set as anything out there is better. Only interesting if you must have the Dutch orchestra in this music, otherwise a real bore. 5 and 6 are ok but not real standouts. The others I don't remember being in any way memorable.

[Mirror Image]

Not really.  Sorry, a pretty superfluous set as anything out there is better. Only interesting if you must have the Dutch orchestra in this music, otherwise a real bore. 5 and 6 are ok but not real standouts. The others I don't remember being in any way memorable.

I'm starting to now remember what I don't like about this particular cycle. As you mentioned, I didn't really hear anything in Haitink's interpretations that stood out to me, which I suppose what prompted me to inquire about it.

[André]

The 1st and 8 th are dynamic and superbly played. Among my favourite performances. There are better accounts for the rest.

[Brian]

Well, there's somebody on GMG who thinks that set is among the best there is - I remember hearing that recommendation. I think Haitink comes close to getting the tempo right in 7's first movement - which is a rare quality. Am currently enjoying the Ninth from that set.

[Karl Henning]

At (I think) Jens's suggestion, I fetched in Haitink recordings of the Fifth (Bavarian Radio) and Sixth (Dresdner Staatskapelle) . . . also the Seventh (Chicago);  and I certainly enjoy all those thoroughly.

[Marc]

At (I think) Jens's suggestion, I fetched in Haitink recordings of the Fifth (Bavarian Radio) and Sixth (Dresdner Staatskapelle) . . . also the Seventh (Chicago);  and I certainly enjoy all those thoroughly.

I enjoy that Dresdner 6th, too.
The other recordings I don't know, but then, I have to say, I'm not a true Bruckner connaisseur.

Apart from that: from the above mentioned Haitink set, I prefer the 'young' Bruckner symphonies, especially nos 1 & 2. They're bold and fresh and Haitink makes them sound like true masterpieces.
He later re-recorded nos 8 & 9 in the early 1980s with the Amsterdam forces (now officially OOP), and I consider them to be errr... quite magnificent. There's a noble depth in those performances, combined with supreme sound quality. Speaking of which: the boxset recording quality is splendid, too. I remember feeling very sad when I heard that Philips was to quit the recording bizz, because I loved their issues so much.

I never heard much mediocrity and dullness in Haitink's performances btw. If you want emotion and intensity on call, then go for conductors like Gergiev. If you want a recording that lasts a lifetime, and which will grow on you during the years, then go for Haitink.

Well, to some this may sound like utter bullshit, but there's nothing against bullshit, as long as God's blessing rests upon it, that's what I always say.
(Loosely translated, after Dutch writer Gerard Reve.)

[Karl Henning]

. . . from the above mentioned Haitink set, I prefer the 'young' Bruckner symphonies, especially nos 1 & 2. They're bold and fresh and Haitink makes them sound like true masterpieces.

He later re-recorded nos 8 & 9 in the early 1980s with the Amsterdam forces (now officially OOP), and I consider them to be errr... quite magnificent. There's a noble depth in those performances, combined with supreme sound quality. Speaking of which: the boxset recording quality is splendid, too. I remember feeling very sad when I heard that Philips was to quit the recording bizz, because I loved their issues so much.

I never heard much mediocrity and dullness in Haitink's performances btw.

I hold many* of his Shostakovich recordings and his entire Vaughan Williams cycle in high regard, indeed . . . which has at times seemed the contrarian position 

* I do not think I have heard all 15 symphonies from his Decca cycle.

[Marc]

I hold many* of his Shostakovich recordings and his entire Vaughan Williams cycle in high regard, indeed . . . which has at times seemed the contrarian position 

* I do not think I have heard all 15 symphonies from his Decca cycle.

Right now I'm listening to Haitink's Bruckner 9 from 1981 (not in the above mentioned box) and it moves me. The Adagio is beautiful. Haitink doesn't turn the old Bruckner into a Mahler-avant-la-lettre, but gives this music its own space and time to sink in. Works great for me.

[André]

A powerful interpretation of the 7th. The disc cover mentions 1954. What I have is a copy a friend gave me, with his own notes. He mentions Aug. 5, 1964. John Berky's web site lists it as 1964 too. To me the sound is clearly 1964, not 1954 (clean, big dynamic range, very little hiss). Anyone has access to more information?

Be that as it may, it's one of the top performances of the work, ever.

[Pat B]

Well, there's somebody on GMG who thinks that set is among the best there is - I remember hearing that recommendation. I think Haitink comes close to getting the tempo right in 7's first movement - which is a rare quality. Am currently enjoying the Ninth from that set.

I don't know if you care but the 9th you posted in the listening thread is the later one Marc mentioned, not the one from his cycle.

[Pat B]

A powerful interpretation of the 7th. The disc cover mentions 1954. What I have is a copy a friend gave me, with his own notes. He mentions Aug. 5, 1964. John Berky's web site lists it as 1964 too. To me the sound is clearly 1964, not 1954 (clean, big dynamic range, very little hiss). Anyone has access to more information?

Be that as it may, it's one of the top performances of the work, ever.

Hard to tell from that JPG but that's a 6.

http://testament.co.uk/carl-schuricht-2-cd-set-for-the-price-of-1-5.html

[vandermolen]

I hold many* of his Shostakovich recordings and his entire Vaughan Williams cycle in high regard, indeed . . . which has at times seemed the contrarian position 

* I do not think I have heard all 15 symphonies from his Decca cycle.

I agree with Karl.

[jlaurson]

Well, there's somebody on GMG who thinks that set is among the best there is - I remember hearing that recommendation. I think Haitink comes close to getting the tempo right in 7's first movement - which is a rare quality. Am currently enjoying the Ninth from that set.

At (I think) Jens's suggestion, I fetched in Haitink recordings of the Fifth (Bavarian Radio) and Sixth (Dresdner Staatskapelle) . . . also the Seventh (Chicago);  and I certainly enjoy all those thoroughly.

The former, not me. The latter, absolutely! I think that Haitink's Non-Official cycles tend to be better (for whatever reason; perhaps age) than the official ones... be it Mahler or Bruckner. I have that main Philips Bruckner cycles and I have his Vienna Bruckner recordings... and I really ought to listen to them more carefully again... but until now I've not been really caught swooning. But those extracurricular Bruckner recordings are real bangers. [Uhm, phrasing?!]