Bruckner's Abbey

[Mirror Image]

Cross-posted from the 'Purchases' thread -

Did some shopping on jpc.de and here are the results:

Does anyone else own the Davies Bruckner series on Arte Nova? What do you think of these performances? I only listened to a few audio samples and they sounded wonderful.

[Jo498]

I think at least the ones with "early versions" are considered among the best of their kind. (I only had the 4th and I just don't like that piece in the early version.)

[Mirror Image]

I think at least the ones with "early versions" are considered among the best of their kind. (I only had the 4th and I just don't like that piece in the early version.)

Thanks for the feedback. I don't think I know the early versions well at all or at least not well enough to say why I like them or dislike them. In due time.

[Mirror Image]

Another Brucknerian conductor I enjoy: Wolfgang Sawallisch. Too bad he only recorded the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 9th.

[Cato]

Klemp's Sixth came in second...thereby proving it is criminally underrated 

Seriously, his Sixth has been a critical darling since it was first issued and the members here, in the blind listening, confirmed just how great it is.

Sarge

I have 3 Klemperer 6ths and each tells a vastly different story. The man could be quite schizophrenic at times...

I have told the story before, but it has been a few years: I once had a recording of Bruckner's Fifth Symphony conducted by Klemperer, and was amazed at how energetic it was.

Then I noticed that I was hearing the wrong key(s). 

And then I noticed that my sister had set the record player to 45 rpm! 

My #1B choice in the blind listening was Gunter Wand.

My Number One #1 choice was of course  0:) Eugen  0:) Jochum  0:)  !   

Concerning Dennis Russell Davies: his handling of other works (e.g. Hans Rott's Symphony in E minor)  is most excellent, so I would trust that he could and would handle Bruckner in the same manner!

He is also from Ohio (Toledo, specifically)!    0:)

[Karl Henning]

DRD has impressive range.

[Mirror Image]

Concerning Dennis Russell Davies: his handling of other works (e.g. Hans Rott's Symphony in E minor)  is most excellent, so I would trust that he could and would handle Bruckner in the same manner!

He is also from Ohio (Toledo, specifically)!    0:)

Like Karl mentioned, Davies has a wide range of composers he's interested in. I'm also quite certain that he would bring a unique approach to Bruckner as he does with all the music he conducts. He really seems to be able to get inside of the music he conducts and offer a different kind of interpretation.

[Sergeant Rock]

Does anyone else own the Davies Bruckner series on Arte Nova? What do you think of these performances? I only listened to a few audio samples and they sounded wonderful.

I own 2, 3, 5 and 6 but have only given 6 a critical listen. I was first intrigued by it during the blind listening. amw and I liked it, but the other participants put it in last place, eliminating it in the first round. Since you and I usually disagree about Bruckner performances, you may not like it either. Here's what we said about the first movement:


Sarge:

Listened to A1, the performance that polarized the group. I can see why amw likes it...and I can also see why the others rated it last. I was torn between intellectual doubt and emotional cheering. The interpretation is very unusual with abrupt differences in tempo that, I don't think, are justified by the score. The first and second themes are played at a fairly brisk pace and I thought, How is this going to be stretched out to almost 19 minutes? The answer came with the third theme and the development, taken at a snail's pace. I initially rebelled but kept listening. The development really is enchanting. Then there was an accelerando into the central climax that thrilled with thunderous timpani. The coda likewise had two very different tempos, the first initially slow, almost like a trudging pilgrim approaching a celestial goal, then suddenly a quick dash to the end with a decisive final chord (no lingering), just how I like it.

The sudden shifts in speeds are jarring but they kept me awake. It's the kind of interpretation I tend to like: something different. I couldn't wait for the reveal; I did some research to find out who it is, and ordered it.


amw:

So far I have listened to A1 (as background music while making dinner, to get an idea of the structure), A2, A3 and A1 again (blasted through the speakers as only Bruckner can be). Note that these are my only exposure to this piece so far; haven't heard it before and don't have a score.

I liked A1 the most, it had a vividness and presence and "explained" the music to me in a way the others didn't.


lisztianwagner:

A1 – The orchestral sound is clear and melodious, instruments well handled and balanced, but the rhythm is too slow and makes the movement lack energy and intensity, with a sense of heaviness.


Pim:

A1: dragging along a bit, not very captivating


ChamberNut:

A1 - 1 point - Quite sluggish, not enough momentum, especially in the key moments, overall sound quality and dynamics are OK.


Monkey Greg (comment during the reveal):

A1 has become a popular figure already. Receiving three last place votes and one first place, also gathering a late "thumbs up" review from Sarge. And if you thought the opening movement is slow, then you may not be prepared for the 18-minute finale, but it needs to be heard, certainly a different universe of Bruckner. Dennis Russell Davies may be the new Cool Kid of the Haydn Haus, but has yet to be offered a key into Bruckner's Abbey, perhaps over time, and with amw and Sarge's seal of approval, it may find its way into a better looking position. But not today, not now. Sorry, DRD.


And here is what amw wrote about those tempo changes I was skeptical of:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,23157.msg813794.html#msg813794

[Sergeant Rock]

Dennis Russell Davies
He is also from Ohio (Toledo, specifically)!    0:)

No wonder I like him    His Rott is good.

Sarge

[amw]

And here is what amw wrote about those tempo changes I was skeptical of:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,23157.msg813794.html#msg813794

To be fair there's one really obvious thing Davies doesn't follow—the metronome marks. He takes both of them about 15-20% slower than in the score. I can't say I am sold. For the correct opening tempo (but not the correct Bedeutend langsamer) Marcus Bosch is your man. Some combination of Bosch and Davies would be ideal, obviously >_>

[Mirror Image]

Thanks for the feedback, Sarge, but I actually listened to the Scherzo from the 6th from Davies and thought it was very good. I didn't find it dragging at all. I found it's overall pacing and musical phrasing to be quite good actually. Of course, hearing it on the ol' home stereo will be even better. The only Bruckner I find dragging is Celibidache and that newcomer Rémy Ballot who I believe may actually be one of the worst Bruckner conductors I ever heard. A solid 10/10 on the 'Bland-O-Meter'.

[Brian]

To be fair there's one really obvious thing Davies doesn't follow—the metronome marks. He takes both of them about 15-20% slower than in the score. I can't say I am sold. For the correct opening tempo (but not the correct Bedeutend langsamer) Marcus Bosch is your man. Some combination of Bosch and Davies would be ideal, obviously >_>

*listening to samples of Bosch*

Wow - that is a crazy fast intro to me. Although Rögner is similar, I think. Gonna go check now.

EDIT: No real Bedeutend langsamer with Rögner, either. Maybe nobody trusts ol' Anton's instincts.

[Mirror Image]

To be fair there's one really obvious thing Davies doesn't follow—the metronome marks. He takes both of them about 15-20% slower than in the score. I can't say I am sold. For the correct opening tempo (but not the correct Bedeutend langsamer) Marcus Bosch is your man. Some combination of Bosch and Davies would be ideal, obviously >_>

I actually sampled some of Bosch's 6th and it's just too fast for my tastes. Didn't like his approach at all. Sawallisch in the 6th, on the other hand, is marvelous and just my kind of performance not to mention HvK and Haitink's live Dresden account.

[Wanderer]

Cross-posted from the 'Purchases' thread -

Does anyone else own the Davies Bruckner series on Arte Nova? What do you think of these performances? I only listened to a few audio samples and they sounded wonderful.

I streamed the finale of No.5 out of curiosity and did not like it. Boring in its pace and bland overall. Forgettable.

Also, the covers are eyesores.

[Mirror Image]

I streamed the finale of No.5 out of curiosity and did not like it. Boring in its pace and bland overall. Forgettable.

Also, the covers are eyesores.

Can't be any more bland and boring than Celibidache or hell even Jochum. 0:)

[Brian]

Can't be any more bland and boring than Celibidache or hell even Jochum. 0:)

*Sarge and Cato retrieve bazookas*

[Sergeant Rock]

*Sarge and Cato retrieve bazookas*

                                MIRROR IMAGE

[Wanderer]

Can't be any more bland and boring than Celibidache or hell even Jochum. 0:)

Hah! He'd probably give an arm and a leg or any other combination of body parts necessary to reach the level of a Celibidache or a Jochum.

*Sarge and Cato retrieve bazookas*

No need. ICBM launched and on its way.

[Cato]

*Sarge and Cato retrieve bazookas*

Bazookas?!  Those are for wimps!



Say hello to my VERY BIG friend!   

[André]

Back to Klemperer and the 6th. 
A common feature of all three performances is the extreme slowness of the introduction to I. It sounds for all the world like a morse code transcription of "I - am - dying"  in slow motion. A visual image would be that of a myopic man tentatively tapping the bed table for his goggles.

When it comes to tempo in Bruckner, it's all a matter of rythm. Not speed or slowness, but firmness of beat and strength of motion. Klemperer knew that. Which enabled him to slow down with age without losing an ounce of grip on the structure of the phrases.

True, his tempo for the beginning of the 6th was sloooow from the get go, regrdless of the year or orchestra. But he made you (me) sit back and take a deep breath before launching a powerful Allegro.