Author Topic: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020  (Read 33623 times)

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Offline 71 dB

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #40 on: July 09, 2019, 11:15:45 AM »
Whatever or whomever you like or dislike is irrelevant. You are an idiot, period.

You are an asshole! Fuck you!
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #41 on: July 09, 2019, 11:17:20 AM »
This fucking board! Who the fuck are you to tell me I am an idiot? Fuck you!!!! I follow american politics hours a day and I KNOW more than you fuckers!!! I know!! You you IGNORABNT"!""
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #42 on: July 09, 2019, 11:18:41 AM »
Whatever or whomever you like or dislike is irrelevant. You are an idiot, period.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT? WHY THE FUCK?????????
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #43 on: July 09, 2019, 11:19:12 AM »
 :-[HUMAN BEING IM I NEEEDD understandign app
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #44 on: July 09, 2019, 11:23:52 AM »
I am not a US citizen, so I won't vote for the next POTUS. Neither are, nor will, you. Go get a jerking off and come back after Bernie lost big time.

What is your problem? Why do you think I am idiot? I think I am educated about american politics. I was not 3 years ago but now I am. I can't understand why people don't see I do understand these things.

Bernie has not lost anything yet. Biden will come down. People realize they don't want "nothing will change man"
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #45 on: July 09, 2019, 11:27:15 AM »
Sorry about the language people, but I AM SICK of being treaded like this!!! Disagree all you want, but DON'T call me an idiot or uneducated. That's not cool. I
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Online JBS

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #46 on: July 09, 2019, 11:28:01 AM »
If you don't like Bernie's "socialism" vote Biden as the president, the man who tells millionaires "don't worry, nothing will change."
That's how the Dems have been for decades. Nothing changed. Oligarchy continued and got worse until people got so desperate they voted for a reality tv clown. That happens when you don't change anything and keep licking the asses of your corporate overloards.

You apparently have no idea of how racism, guns, abortion, and the "culture wars" have shaped American politics over the last three decades or so.  Trump's appeal was to authoritarianism, bigotry, outright xenophobia, and the social conservatism embodied in the "Religious Right". Unfortunately, in the US there are a lot of social conservatives who, if not themselves bigots, are happy to ignore Trump's bigotry to ensure that social conservatism retains power.

 The American Left, meanwhile, has focused far more on social justice issues than economic issues. Bernie is very much a latecomer on those.
But "social justice" is a core item in American progressivism. Ignore that at your peril.

Online JBS

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #47 on: July 09, 2019, 11:29:47 AM »
Locking this poll to give the toddlers a timeout people a chance to regain their tempers

Online SimonNZ

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #48 on: July 09, 2019, 04:07:05 PM »
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #49 on: July 09, 2019, 04:38:07 PM »
I don't like the way the term "populism" is used in american politics, but it is what it is. In Finland populism means offering "easy" solutions (which often aren't real solutions to complex problems) to make ignorant simpletons vote for you. In american politics populism means also offering solutions that benefit regular people and are therefore popular among regular people. Europe doesn't need "single-payer-populism", because European countries already have single-payer-healthcare, but in the US there is room for  that kind of "populism." The US has entered the era of political populism, one of the reasons why Hillary Clinton lost. She played the game like it was year 1992. Trump/Sarah Palin represent right-wing populism while Bernie Sanders/AOC represent left-wing populism.
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Offline drogulus

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #50 on: July 10, 2019, 05:43:12 AM »
I don't like the way the term "populism" is used in american politics, but it is what it is. In Finland populism means offering "easy" solutions (which often aren't real solutions to complex problems) to make ignorant simpletons vote for you. In american politics populism means also offering solutions that benefit regular people and are therefore popular among regular people. Europe doesn't need "single-payer-populism", because European countries already have single-payer-healthcare, but in the US there is room for  that kind of "populism." The US has entered the era of political populism, one of the reasons why Hillary Clinton lost. She played the game like it was year 1992. Trump/Sarah Palin represent right-wing populism while Bernie Sanders/AOC represent left-wing populism.

     Yes, that's a fair assessment. The right populists are white populists in revolt against what the country is becoming, which it will nevertheless become. The left populists want to accelerate the process. The right pops have no economic program other than to kill as many goats as they can because some will go to nonwhite neighbors. The left pops want goats, lots of them, and don't mind if they go to everyone. At least they don't mind very much. The programs usually offer good stuff to Trumpland like health care and higher minimum wages. Running the economy up to full output might even help the Red wastelands more than the Blue power nodes, a point that's often lost, so I found it.
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #51 on: July 10, 2019, 06:15:10 AM »
The left populists want to accelerate the process.

Rather overcome the forces hindering the process.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 06:17:48 AM by 71 dB »
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Offline drogulus

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #52 on: July 10, 2019, 07:23:53 AM »
    One thing about populists is that while they are reacting against elites they do so in cooperation with an elite faction that runs the program for them. Trump ran as a populist then turned over his administration to the right wing elite. From a voter perspective what was gained, what jobs were saved, what such good health care was offered?

     Dem populists want to enable left wonkery sidelined by Clintonite triangulators, preferring the part of the Dem elite that wants programs that match goals the left shares with the public rather than bargaining them away to appease a semi-fictitious center. Most people don't want abortion to be half legal, most want it to be legal, including almost half of Repubs. Most people don't want half a strong economy or half a climate change investment plan or half measures on health care. Dem pops don't want to negotiate down these programs with themselves even before the fight with Repubs begins.

     I think Dems have more to gain by embracing popular ideas than they have to lose. They don't need to support the left-most candidate for this, and I hope they don't.
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #53 on: July 10, 2019, 11:25:02 AM »
The left-most candidates in the US aren't that left-wing from "European" perspective. The Overton Window in the US has moved far right so that The Dems today are where the Republicans used to be a few decades ago. Obamacare is essentially a Republican right-wing idea by the Heritage Foundation think-tank from the 1980's also known as (Mitt) RomneyCare securing the business model of insurance companies. So, the Dems did an originally Republican healthcare plan while having supermajority and Nancy Pelosi is called a master legistlator for that. What a joke! Even public option was too left-wing for Obama/the Dems and from "European" perspective public option is pretty right-wing shit. All of this is of course explained by looking who donates to the politicians in the US. The insurance companies got what they paid for! The US is a brilliantly well working oligarchy. The problem here is of course that unlike countries like Russia, the US is supposed to be a leading democracy and protector of democracy and freedom in the World. At least that's how the US justifies it's interventionism and wars.

Looked through the American Overton Window Bernie Sanders looks like this, market (B):

FAR LEFT (B)------------------- FAR RIGHT

From European perspective Bernie Sanders looks like this:

FAR LEFT --------(B)----------- FAR RIGHT
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Offline drogulus

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #54 on: July 10, 2019, 02:41:15 PM »
The left-most candidates in the US aren't that left-wing from "European" perspective.

     I'm aware of that. The best candidate isn't the left-most, and the worst is not the right-most. There are other considerations. Also, there is no way to import the European spectrum without the history that produced it, the defeat of doctrinaire socialism by social democracy in the face of the Communist challenge, bolstered by the US defense guarantee. That's a special situation not replicated anywhere else.

     I'm not oversensitive about criticism of US politics from abroad. I care about arguments more than who is entitled to make them. Handsome is as handsome does IMV, and some Americans don't know where Montana is, let alone Finland.
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #55 on: July 10, 2019, 03:03:31 PM »
and some Americans don't know where Montana is, let alone Finland.

They're neighbouring states, aren't they?
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Offline drogulus

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #56 on: July 10, 2019, 03:07:31 PM »
They're neighbouring states, aren't they?

     Well, they're close but I don't think they share a common border.
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #57 on: July 10, 2019, 03:44:39 PM »
     Well, they're close but I don't think they share a common border.

Well, sepaarated by the Gulf of Idaho, sure.
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #58 on: July 10, 2019, 03:51:55 PM »
     I'm aware of that. The best candidate isn't the left-most, and the worst is not the right-most. There are other considerations. Also, there is no way to import the European spectrum without the history that produced it, the defeat of doctrinaire socialism by social democracy in the face of the Communist challenge, bolstered by the US defense guarantee. That's a special situation not replicated anywhere else.

     I'm not oversensitive about criticism of US politics from abroad. I care about arguments more than who is entitled to make them. Handsome is as handsome does IMV, and some Americans don't know where Montana is, let alone Finland.

So who is the best in your opinion and why?

Bernie Sanders is the best. He has the agenda to fix the problems in the US and we know he won't backpedal like fake progressives would, maybe even Elizabeth Warren. Also, Bernie has the grassroot support among the people (over a million voluntiers). As for who is most electable, Bernie would crush Trump because Trump's retoric doesn't work on Bernie and Bernie has strong support in the important rust-belt where Hillary lost. The corporate media tries to render a narrative where Bernie is struggling, but that's not true. The twist the reality to make it look maximally bad for Bernie who has more individual donor than any other candidate. Buttigieg collects those $2800 from millionaires (that makes him corrupt and anti-progressive), but that donor can give him that many ONCE. Large donations mean you run out of donations fast. Bernie gets $18 in avarege so the same people can keep donating again and again... ...the establishment has a plan to make Bernie and Elizabeth equally popular so they split the progressive support so Biden or Harris can beat them. Do you want the oligarchy to continue or do you want FINALLY change after 4 decades? Bernie is your change.

Where Montana is? Who cares? People have other problems like going bankrupt if you get ill.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 03:54:54 PM by 71 dB »
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Offline drogulus

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #59 on: July 10, 2019, 05:37:50 PM »
So who is the best in your opinion and why?



     The best is the one that will do what I want. That is none of them, so I'll settle for the one that will do more of what I want than any other. When I find out who that is, I'll let the world know.

     We are (heh!) different. I think you have to have an ideology, but it's dangerous if you let it boss you around.
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