And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020

[Karl Henning]

JBS, you are too far gone. I stop wasting my time on you.

Since you make no effort to understand what he has to say, truly, you are wasting your time.

[Madiel]

I listen to plenty of American podcasts and other American sources that reference the poor standard of living in America.

You do know, for example, that you have shockingly high rates of death in childbirth? Except in a couple of states that have done something about it.

There are any number of measures of quality of life that illustrate that the USA has a bigger gap between those doing well and those not doing well than most other 'First World' countries. If the UN was all about this supposed agenda, then you'd think they would guilt trip all of the West in the same way. And yet, there are all these international scores that show life is most likely better for you as a poorer person in Canada, Japan, Scandinavia, Switzerland, Australia or New Zealand than if you're a poorer person in the USA.

Americans do have a most peculiar habit of believing they have nothing to learn from anywhere else. Exceptionalism is pretty much ingrained in the national psyche. There's a belief that you're the greatest country in the world, which you probably were about 3 or 4 generations ago. But for several decades your ranking has been sliding, and one of the ways it's been sliding the most is that a huge gap has opened up between rich and poor. Bigger than in most comparable countries.

EDIT: And of course, the whole "Make America Great Again" logically depends on you not being so great anymore. Not that logic has a lot to do with it.

[JBS]

I listen to plenty of American podcasts and other American sources that reference the poor standard of living in America.

You do know, for example, that you have shockingly high rates of death in childbirth? Except in a couple of states that have done something about it.

There are any number of measures of quality of life that illustrate that the USA has a bigger gap between those doing well and those not doing well than most other 'First World' countries. If the UN was all about this supposed agenda, then you'd think they would guilt trip all of the West in the same way. And yet, there are all these international scores that show life is most likely better for you as a poorer person in Canada, Japan, Scandinavia, Switzerland, Australia or New Zealand than if you're a poorer person in the USA.

Americans do have a most peculiar habit of believing they have nothing to learn from anywhere else. Exceptionalism is pretty much ingrained in the national psyche. There's a belief that you're the greatest country in the world, which you probably were about 3 or 4 generations ago. But for several decades your ranking has been sliding, and one of the ways it's been sliding the most is that a huge gap has opened up between rich and poor. Bigger than in most comparable countries.

EDIT: And of course, the whole "Make America Great Again" logically depends on you not being so great anymore. Not that logic has a lot to do with it.

Pujo was claiming poor people in the US live at Third World levels. Not the same thing you are saying.

But most of the problems you are mentioning are linked in the US to racism and its legacies.  So comparing the figures to EU countries is not actually valid.  European countries don't really have the legacies of racism--both suppression of native populations and the heritage of slavery--we have in the US.

A valid comparison would be a comparison of statistics among the indigenous peoples of Australia and Canada on the one hand and those of the US on the other hand.  I know that Native Americans have extremely high rates of poverty. [You probably have heard of the Keystone Pipeline. The focus of opposition to it among the Lakota is a county which supposedly has the highest poverty rate in the entire US.] How do the Aborigines compare to them?

[71 dB]

Americans do have a most peculiar habit of believing they have nothing to learn from anywhere else. Exceptionalism is pretty much ingrained in the national psyche. There's a belief that you're the greatest country in the world, which you probably were about 3 or 4 generations ago. But for several decades your ranking has been sliding, and one of the ways it's been sliding the most is that a huge gap has opened up between rich and poor. Bigger than in most comparable countries.

The younger generation is more open to learn from other countries and unsurprisingly the younger generation is overhelmingly for progressive ideas.  I have understood that the US used to be much more left wing decades ago (50's) and that's when the middle class was super strong. Almost anyone could have a house with picked fences not to mention FDR earlier who was so popular and left wing that the Republicans came up with the idea of term limits. Even the early 70's was ok, but then money in politics was allowed and the decline of democracy started. Four decades later people are so pissed of how rigged the system is for the top 1 % and desperate they elect a reality tv baffoon as the president.

[71 dB]

Since you make no effort to understand what he has to say, truly, you are wasting your time.

Do you agree with him UN is useless in providing accurate information?
Do you think people in Alabama are just fine?

What he is saying is that he believes corporate media. He doesn't show interest in learning alternate perspective so...

[Madiel]

Pujo was claiming poor people in the US live at Third World levels. Not the same thing you are saying.

Well then, let me say it. Because various bits of data say it. Including the bit about mothers dying in childbirth. There are parts of America where that happens at rates otherwise only seen in the Third World.

[JBS]

Well then, let me say it. Because various bits of data say it. Including the bit about mothers dying in childbirth. There are parts of America where that happens at rates otherwise only seen in the Third World.

Very well. And I am saying that those statistics have more to due with racism (both past and present) than anything else.

That UN report talked about Alabama. It's no coincidence that the first capital of the Confederate States was the capitol of Alabama. The UN fellow went looking where he knew he could find the result he wanted.

[JBS]

. He doesn't show interest in learning alternate perspective so...

You should be the last person to complain about not learning alternate perspectives.

I did not say people in Alabama were fine.

[71 dB]

Well then, let me say it. Because various bits of data say it. Including the bit about mothers dying in childbirth. There are parts of America where that happens at rates otherwise only seen in the Third World.

According to Wikipedia, even Russia ( 18.7 ) and China ( 17.7 ) have lower maternal mortality rates than the US ( 26.4* ). As a comparison in Finland ( 3.8 ), one of the lowest in the World.

(per 100.000 live births, 2015 data)

* varies a lot from 14-to 26.4, but high nevertheless for a developped country (less than 10 elsewhere)

Maternal Mortality Is Rising in the U.S. As It Declines Elsewhere.

[Madiel]

Very well. And I am saying that those statistics have more to due with racism (both past and present) than anything else.

That UN report talked about Alabama. It's no coincidence that the first capital of the Confederate States was the capitol of Alabama. The UN fellow went looking where he knew he could find the result he wanted.

I don't doubt that racism is involved. But if that's the case you must be getting more racist over time as your rates are going up.

And mysteriously, racism drops off markedly if you happen to live in California, Nevada or Massachusetts.

And racism in Alabama is about 4 times less than in Georgia...

According to these stats, there's no doubt it's worse being a black woman in Georgia. But it's appallingly bad being a WHITE woman in Georgia. I mean, a white woman in Georgia is still about 10 times more likely to die than anyone in California.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2019-06-12/these-states-have-the-highest-maternal-mortality-rates

[JBS]

About racism.
Sorry for the long copy pasta. It's from the same Wikipedia article.

African American women are four times as likely to suffer from maternal morbidity and mortality than Caucasian women,[3] and there has been no large-scale improvement over the course of 20 years to rectify these conditions.[34] Furthermore, women of color, especially "African-American, Indigenous, Latina and immigrant women and women who did not speak English", are less likely to obtain the care they need. In addition, foreign-born women have an increased likelihood of maternal mortality, particularly Hispanic Women.[35] Cause of mortality, especially in older women, is different among different races. Caucasian women are more likely to experience hemorrhage, cardiomyopathy, and embolism whereas African American women are more likely to experience hypertensive disorders, stroke, and infection.

The US has shown to have the highest rate of pregnancy related deaths o/c maternal mortality amongst all the industrialized countries. The CDC first implemented the Pregnancy Mortality Surveillance System in 1986 and since then maternal mortality rates have increased from 7.2 deaths per 100,000 live births in 1987 to 17.2 deaths per 100,000 live births in 2015. The issue of maternal mortality disproportionately affects women of colour when compared with the rate in white non-Hispanic women. The following statistics were retrieved from the CDC and show the rate of maternal mortality between 2011 and 2015 per 100000 live births: Black non-Hispanic -42.8, American Indian/Alaskan Native non-Hispanic-32.5, Asian/Pacific Islander on-Hispanic -14.2, White non-Hispanic-13.0, and Hispanic -11.4. Black non-Hispanic women tend to have limited access to pre- and post-natal healthcare services. Additionally, they experience higher rates of discrimination, disrespect and abuse than white non-Hispanic women.

That's why I referred to Australian Aborigines as a good comparison to US Native Americans.

The reference to California, Massachusetts, and Nevada helps prove my point. They are very "blue" states.  Almost all the states in the bottom portion of the list have high minority populations and history of racism against blacks and/or Native Americans. (Indiana at the bottom and Alabama at the top are definite anomolies.)

[JBS]

There is, btw, this little complication

Measurement and data collection   Edit
According to a 2016 article in Obstetrics and Gynecology by MacDorman et al., one factor affecting the US maternal death rate is the variability in calculation of maternal deaths. The WHO deems maternal deaths to be those occurring within 42 days of the end of pregnancy, whereas the United States Pregnancy Mortality Surveillance System measures maternal deaths as those occurring within a year of the end of pregnancy.[4] Some states allow multiple responses, such as whether death occurred during pregnancy, within 42 days after pregnancy, or within a year of pregnancy, but some states, such as California, ask simply whether death occurred within a year postpartum.[4]

IOW, the US rate may be higher because of a difference in its definition.

[Madiel]

The reference to California, Massachusetts, and Nevada helps prove my point. They are very "blue" states.  Almost all the states in the bottom portion of the list have high minority populations and history of racism against blacks and/or Native Americans. (Indiana at the bottom and Alabama at the top are definite anomolies.)

If you'd take your blinkers off for just a second (and for instance notice the huge Hispanic population in California), I can explain to you that it's got nothing to do with them being "blue" states, unless a characteristic of "blue" states is to recognise the mechanisms that other countries have implemented, learn from them and implement them as well.

I mean, why just 3 "blue" states? What about all the other "blue" ones that don't do nearly as well? Those 3 states have a death rate about 50% of the next best state.

What those states have in common is that they have systems where any instance of maternal death is documented and researched and learned from. To be better prepared for the next patient.

Anyway, I don't know what the purpose of your argument is. The claim was that there are people in the US living in third world conditions. Responding "oh, that's just because we're racist" is no kind of sensible answer and does you no credit. Do you want some kind of congratulations if it's just black people living in third world conditions (which isn't true anyway, even though black people are more affected there are predominantly white areas of your country with lousy outcomes too)? Is your argument that your statistics are only so bad because your black population is too big compared to the racial minorities of other countries?

Sorry, but that's a fucking weird argument. When it comes to bare statements that factually, there are people in the US living in bad conditions you seem to be wanting to come up with reasons why as if there are nice reasons why. When the fundamental point is that these are fixable problems, and the US is doing a really shit job of fixing them.

[Madiel]

There is, btw, this little complication
IOW, the US rate may be higher because of a difference in its definition.

You do notice that California is given as an example of a state with the looser definition, that would lead to a higher rate?

And yet California has the lowest rate in the country. Easily.

I continue to not understand why you are grasping at the straws you are grasping at. Why is it so difficult to accept that not everyone in your country owns a golfing resort?

[Karl Henning]

I don't doubt that racism is involved. But if that's the case you must be getting more racist over time as your rates are going up.

And mysteriously, racism drops off markedly if you happen to live in California, Nevada or Massachusetts.

And racism in Alabama is about 4 times less than in Georgia...

According to these stats, there's no doubt it's worse being a black woman in Georgia. But it's appallingly bad being a WHITE woman in Georgia. I mean, a white woman in Georgia is still about 10 times more likely to die than anyone in California.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2019-06-12/these-states-have-the-highest-maternal-mortality-rates

And yet, the places like backwater Alabama where conditions are the worst, are solidly for Trump, and will vote against any candidate that Poju likes.

[JBS]

Madiel, you seem to be missing my main point.  Which is not about the quality of medical care in California.
The point is that most poverty in the US is directly linked to racism. You can't fix one unless you can fix the other. So the "solutions" that might work in other countries won't work as well here. And racism, and its legacies,  has a huge role in American society that exists in no other First World country.  The only real parallel I know of is Australia's treatment of its First Peoples, and even that parallels only the US treatment of Native Americans, not blacks.  Pretty much all the "third world" conditions exist in communities that are black or Native American, and that's not a coincidence. 

[Madiel]

Madiel, you seem to be missing my main point.  Which is not about the quality of medical care in California.
The point is that most poverty in the US is directly linked to racism. You can't fix one unless you can fix the other. So the "solutions" that might work in other countries won't work as well here. And racism, and its legacies,  has a huge role in American society that exists in no other First World country.  The only real parallel I know of is Australia's treatment of its First Peoples, and even that parallels only the US treatment of Native Americans, not blacks.  Pretty much all the "third world" conditions exist in communities that are black or Native American, and that's not a coincidence.

I'm not missing your point. I'm saying it's not true, because there are areas of the US that are predominantly white and which suffer poverty. West Virginia springs to mind.

I'm also pointing out to you that there areas of the country where being white might be better than being black, but it's STILL bad. So no, it's not directly linked to racism. I've repeatedly acknowledged that race is a factor, but this simplistic notion that it's all about race and therefore that's THE key to fixing things is just not accurate.

And I'm still mystified why you think whether or not it's racism is any kind of response to the original point about whether or not there's serious poverty in the United States. You're not denying, then, that there are people who have Third World living standards in the USA?

I honestly can't figure out what you're trying to say, because it feels like you spend half the time trying to deny the information that 71db and I have put forward, and the other half of the time trying to explain that racism is the cause of that information. Those two approaches can't sit together.

[JBS]

I'm not missing your point. I'm saying it's not true, because there are areas of the US that are predominantly white and which suffer poverty. West Virginia springs to mind.

I'm also pointing out to you that there areas of the country where being white might be better than being black, but it's STILL bad. So no, it's not directly linked to racism. I've repeatedly acknowledged that race is a factor, but this simplistic notion that it's all about race and therefore that's THE key to fixing things is just not accurate.

And I'm still mystified why you think whether or not it's racism is any kind of response to the original point about whether or not there's serious poverty in the United States. You're not denying, then, that there are people who have Third World living standards in the USA?

I honestly can't figure out what you're trying to say, because it feels like you spend half the time trying to deny the information that 71db and I have put forward, and the other half of the time trying to explain that racism is the cause of that information. Those two approaches can't sit together.

I think what you mean by Third World poverty is not what I mean by Third World poverty.  What I mean by the term is the extreme sort of poverty where people live with no running water, dirt floors, and no assets beyond their own labor.  That exists in the US, on Indian reservations and among some blacks in the rural South, and it's a direct legacy of racism. It doesn't exist among whites in West Virginia or  anywhere else. Where poverty is worse in the US than the rest of the First World, it's a direct link from racism. Until and unless we Americans fix racism, poverty won't be fixed.  That's a complicating factor that exists almost nowhere else in the First World. And the legacies of racism have a much higher impact on poverty than the percentage of billionaires in the population.

.

[greg]

Until and unless we Americans fix racism, poverty won't be fixed.

Good luck with that. At this point China is probably more racist than the US.

Since racism isn't very widespread anymore here, reducing it greatly at this point would be impossible without some sort of thought detection system.

And eradicating it entirely would be 100% impossible. It's easier to reduce it a lot when it's widespread and out in the open.

[71 dB]

And yet, the places like backwater Alabama where conditions are the worst, are solidly for Trump, and will vote against any candidate that Poju likes.

We'll see how people of Alabama vote, but sadly a lot of people are easily brainwashed to vote against their own good. As we know, Trump has done ablolutely nothing to help people of Alabama. On the contrary, I'm sure many people in Alabama have lost their healthcare under Trump. Despite of this ignorance is ignorance and Trump probably beats any Democrat candidate in Alabama, but if it is Trump vs Bernie I am sure Bernie does much better than Hillary Clinton in 2016 (was Trump's 62.08 % to Hillary Clinton's 34.36 %).