Richard Wagner: The Greatest Influence on Western Music?

[BachQ]

Uh, Salieri's Tarare, anyone? Considering this was written before Wagner was even born, I can't fathom how anyone could make some of the statements being made here concerning Wagner and "music drama".

Yes ........ and I'm also curious about Rameau's, Handel's and Gluck's influence on "music drama" ......

[JoshLilly]

I think Salieri was obviously influenced (directly!) by Gluck. Beaumarchais, who wrote the play on which it was based and the libretto, was quite taken with Rameau from what I understand. But, I don't know of anything by Gluck, Rameau, or Händel that would be basically the exact same thing that Wagner did (speaking "structurally"). Tarare is kind of unusual in that Salieri and Beaumarchais deliberately wanted to break rules; I mean, they deliberately intended to create a "formless" work. Not only musically, but within the plot which, for example, blurs the line between - say - noble and commoner to the point that you oftentimes can't tell them apart. Everything in the music, libretto, structure, is designed to be a "blur". Beaumarchais was so into this project that he actually wrote the libretto himself.

[Haffner]

Well, that's what DavidW and I are wondering: what was Wagner's influence on Schoenberg, and how was this reflected in Schoenberg's music?

Eeek ! I'm to blame for puttin' my two cents in  .


Having written that earlier post, I see where Schoenberg's middle-to-late style could have been influenced by many factors...Wagner and Mahler certainly weren't alone in their chromatic and dissonant explorations.

So I kind of boo-booed by not thinking things out enough. I stand abashed and ask for forgiveness.

[BachQ]

Tarare is kind of unusual in that Salieri and Beaumarchais deliberately wanted to break rules; I mean, they deliberately intended to create a "formless" work. Not only musically, but within the plot which, for example, blurs the line between - say - noble and commoner to the point that you oftentimes can't tell them apart. Everything in the music, libretto, structure, is designed to be a "blur". Beaumarchais was so into this project that he actually wrote the libretto himself.

Well, now you've got me interested in Tarare ........ a work I know very little about .........

But, more fundamentally, the concept of a "music drama" (in which the music is directly linked to the characters, events, and emotions being portrayed) seems like such a no-brainer, that I have a hard time believing that pre-Wagner opera composers were oblivious to it ........

If Wagner hadn't pioneered this concept, someone else surely would have early on ........

[BachQ]

I stand abashed and ask for forgiveness.

That's ok ....... GMG has a special room for you .......

[Haffner]

That's ok ....... GMG has a special room for you .......

weeeeee!

[karlhenning]

All right; who took Cosima's picture down from the wall?!?

[David Zalman]

Wagner elevated the opera to musical drama where the music was put first above other considerations, it was no longer a background, but a full integral part of the experience.  In that sense indeed music was Wagner's ultimate concern....

Your notion would certainly have both surprised and annoyed Wagner as music for him was simply one element of music-drama which like all the other elements worked to serve what was primary and central in music-drama: the drama itself.  It's most telling that in his voluminous writings on the subject of music-drama Wagner discusses in detail and at length just about every element involved, but never once discusses his music other than to point out its place in the overall scheme of music-drama.  For him, music was simply a given.

[jochanaan]

Note about opera: Since its inception some four hundred years ago, it has been periodically "reformed" by people who saw, or seemed to see, that it had become a bloated, artificial form and needed to become simpler or more communicative or, well, "different" in some way.  Gluck, as I understand it (I'm not familiar with his operas to any great extent), was one of these reformers, drastically simplifying the Baroque form which had become mostly a string of glittering arias held by the slenderest of plots, and favoring cogent stories simply told.  Wagner, whatever we may think of his music, was another such reformer, erasing the lines between recitative and aria, abolishing the "set piece," and making the orchestra an integral part of the drama.  In this, he was indeed one of the most influential opera composers.

[JoshLilly]

But Wagner didn't originate that, so if it was reform, it didn't come from him. He may have favoured a certain reform, but it wasn't his original idea. One of my main pet peeves in life is when famous people get credit for things they didn't do. My favourite example is to name the song Heartbreak Hotel and ask people who's it is. They always say Elvis. It grates on my nerves to no end. It wasn't Elvis, and it wasn't Wagner.

Here's my rule of thumb, and it works very, very often; almost always.

JOSH'S LAW-
If a statement contains "The first composer to do (x)" or "(x) was the first composer to ever", and references one of those superfamous composers, it is almost certainly false.




The correct answer to Heartbreak Hotel question is:  Thomas Durden

[jochanaan]

But Wagner didn't originate that, so if it was reform, it didn't come from him. He may have favoured a certain reform, but it wasn't his original idea...

For clarification, what exactly are you talking about?  I mentioned two reforms/innovations (erasing the recitative/aria distinction and enhancing the orchestra); which one didn't begin with Wagner?

[JoshLilly]

I don't know exactly what is meant by "enhancing the orchestra", but Salieri had already gotten into the whole "one long unbroken musical string" thing way back when. I would not at all be surprised to find another gave him the idea first. Salieri's Tarare has a few places where one singer takes centre stage, and it's kind-of an aria, but there's no definite line as to when it begins or ends. The definite lines come at the ends of acts. Tarare was deliberately made from the get-go to be blurred and undefined, that was the whole idea.

[jochanaan]

Ah.  Well, yes; my only excuse for my statement is that I'm completely unfamiliar with Tarare, to the point of never having heard of it till this thread. I wonder if Wagner knew that opera?

As for orchestral enhancement, there's a good case for Berlioz being one of the greatest orchestral innovators of all. (Certainly our esteemed Karl Henning would agree with me! )  But I was not speaking just of the increased size of Wagner's orchestra; rather, of his way of building a steady arch of orchestral sound and motive.

[JoshLilly]

Actually, Berlioz is one of the most "ahead-of-his-time" sounding composers ever. Even I - champion of obscure composers - will agree with Berlioz as an exception to Josh's Law.

And I'd bet money Wagner was familiar with Tarare.

As for the leitmotiv idea, the composer everybody around here seems to love to ridicule - Dittersdorf - used that in a couple of his operas. He was not alone during the 18th century in doing this, but the rest I've only read about, not heard for myself.

[greg]

That's ok ....... GMG has a special room for you .......

how'd u find Ubloobideega's secret lair? 
this is where he takes people and forces them to watch Barney and Friends and 7th Heaven until they die (which takes just a few hours)...

[BachQ]

how'd u find Ubloobideega's secret lair? 
this is where he takes people and forces them to watch Barney and Friends and 7th Heaven until they die (which takes just a few hours)...

It also doubles as a venue for forced exposure to Saul's glorious music ..........

[karlhenning]

Mmm . . . so that all the senses may bask . . . .

[Haffner]

Mmm . . . so that all the senses may bask . . . .

Saul-ian Synesthesia!


Take that from more than one perspective...

[BachQ]

From 1799:



http://www.secm.org/misc/sun/sun.html#sun

"Our worthy Haydn is supposed to have
seen this sheet. It is said that he
was not displeased by it, was also
not ashamed to be in the vicinity
of Handel and Graun, and considered it
even less of an injustice that Joh. Seb.
Bach should be the center of the sun,
hence the man from whom all musical wisdom
streams."

It seems some people at the time already recognized the influence of J. S. Bach. And that's even before his 'revival'.

Surely, there must be something about this man that always lands him into this type of praise, wouldn't you say?

Who is Graun?

[Haffner]

I'm not certain as to Wagner as "Greatest Influence..." etc. I do tend to doubt whether modern cinematic soundtracks would be much as they are without his having existed.

This is coming from a man whom has relatively recently been devastated by Wagner's music on a very deep level.