Contemporary queer composers

[fbjim]

If your response to seeing a thread about queer composers is to walk in, say that it doesn't matter to you if a composer is queer, but nonetheless, the thread should be locked or deleted, then I can imagine why you get bad reactions.

[Brian]

I think it's important to speak against censorship, especially censorship of a group which historically was frequently bullied or marginalized.

[Mirror Image]

I think it's important to speak against censorship, especially censorship of a group which historically was frequently bullied or marginalized.

Let me clear the air by saying I don't care what the composer is, to me this thread seems like it marginalizes these composers even further by "grouping" them. If they have something unique to say musically, then they did their job, if they have nothing to say musically, then they failed. This thread seems to propagate homosexual composers as if they're "different" then heterosexual composers. My point is none of this matters if the music is good and touches you emotionally/intellectually. Anyway, this is all I'm going to say in this thread as any further as it's quite evident that I touched a nerve for some members here.

Special edit: Look who my avatar is for Christ's sake! Copland was a homosexual man who wrote some first-rate music. Does his sexual orientation factor into my own enjoyment of the music? Absolutely not! I love the man and his music.

Okay....now I'm DONE.

[not edward]

MI: since I'm a queer person I'll just note here that I wouldn't see a thread like this as marginalising composers unless they're somehow not allowed to have a thread in this board as well, or if it was a crass marketing ploy like those compilation CDs of disconnected movements from random gay composers (and sometimes composers where it's not really clear whether they were gay or not) that were such an awkward example of the 90s trend of chasing the "pink dollar."

A thread like this can be illuminating in the same sort of way that a thread about contemporary American composers, or Black contemporary composers, can. Where most threads in this particular board are about a single composer, threads of this nature group together composers who have something significant in common that will have significantly affected their own life experience. This opens the opportunity to discuss how these shared experiences affected a group of composers; how it created commonalities between their music, and also how different approaches to these experiences led to contrasting results, topics harder to discuss in a single-composer thread.

[Mirror Image]

MI: since I'm a queer person I'll just note here that I wouldn't see a thread like this as marginalising composers unless they're somehow not allowed to have a thread in this board as well, or if it was a crass marketing ploy like those compilation CDs of disconnected movements from random gay composers (and sometimes composers where it's not really clear whether they were gay or not) that were such an awkward example of the 90s trend of chasing the "pink dollar."

A thread like this can be illuminating in the same sort of way that a thread about contemporary American composers, or Black contemporary composers, can. Where most threads in this particular board are about a single composer, threads of this nature group together composers who have something significant in common that will have significantly affected their own life experience. This opens the opportunity to discuss how these shared experiences affected a group of composers; how it created commonalities between their music, and also how different approaches to these experiences led to contrasting results, topics harder to discuss in a single-composer thread.

Thanks for your response, Edward. Perhaps I should've taken Brian's advice and stayed out of the thread. Sometimes it just makes me upset to see these types of threads not because I'm a homophobe or against the whole LGBT movement altogether, but because I just felt it didn't have a place here since the music seems to be the focal point and not the composer's personal life. Anyway, I'm glad you weighed in on this and I'll kindly exit stage left as I've done enough derailment already.

[Spotted Horses]

It is a knife that cuts both ways. Having to point out an artist's status as a member of a marginalized group can seem to reinforce the marginalized status. I remember being somewhat put off by the fact that in Borders Books you had to look in the African American section to find works by Toni Morrison. On one hand Toni Morrison did write from uniquely African American perspective, but on the other she is a literary genius regardless of what group she belongs to. I didn't have to look in some sort of "Jewish American" section to find Philip Roth, who just as clearly wrote from a certain cultural viewpoint.

I tend to think it is more relevant in literature, where we are dealing with stories about the experiences of people who have unique cultural experiences. Music is more abstract, but I suppose we still have to deal with the hurdles members of marginalized groups must get past. I remember reading in the notes to some David Diamond recordings that there is reason to believe that his sexual orientation interfered with the acceptance of his music. That seems plausible, but hard to prove.

It brings to mind an experience I had long ago. Penguin (the book publisher) brought out a series of classical recordings (actually reissues of existing recordings) which were supposed to be presented in a literary context. I ended up getting one issue, Tchaikovsky's 6th Symphony recorded by Karajan/Berlin. I was surprised to find that the included essay made no mention of the music, but instead dwelled on the fact that the Pathetique was the first "gay symphony." Huh?

[Mandryka]

It is a knife that cuts both ways. Having to point out an artist's status as a member of a marginalized group can seem to reinforce the marginalized status. I remember being somewhat put off by the fact that in Borders Books you had to look in the African American section to find works by Toni Morrison. On one hand Toni Morrison did write from uniquely African American perspective, but on the other she is a literary genius regardless of what group she belongs to. I didn't have to look in some sort of "Jewish American" section to find Philip Roth, who just as clearly wrote from a certain cultural viewpoint.

I tend to think it is more relevant in literature, where we are dealing with stories about the experiences of people who have unique cultural experiences. Music is more abstract, but I suppose we still have to deal with the hurdles members of marginalized groups must get past. I remember reading in the notes to some David Diamond recordings that there is reason to believe that his sexual orientation interfered with the acceptance of his music. That seems plausible, but hard to prove.

It brings to mind an experience I had long ago. Penguin (the book publisher) brought out a series of classical recordings (actually reissues of existing recordings) which were supposed to be presented in a literary context. I ended up getting one issue, Tchaikovsky's 6th Symphony recorded by Karajan/Berlin. I was surprised to find that the included essay made no mention of the music, but instead dwelled on the fact that the Pathetique was the first "gay symphony." Huh?

Yes well interpretation is not the same as librarianship. I think that a queer interpretation of Tchaikovsky 6 is possible and interesting, but it isn't forced, it's one of many possible interpretations. The composers life gives it a privileged status maybe, but it doesn't make it inevitable. It's not like it's been pigeonholed, like a librarian finds the right slot on the shelf. In interpretation, there is no right slot, there are many interesting slots.

[Spotted Horses]

Yes well interpretation is not the same as librarianship. I think that a queer interpretation of Tchaikovsky 6 is possible and interesting, but it isn't forced, it's one of many possible interpretations. The composers life gives it a privileged status maybe, but it doesn't make it inevitable. It's not like it's been pigeonholed, like a librarian finds the right slot on the shelf. In interpretation, there is no right slot, there are many interesting slots.

I certainly think there is a layer of richness that a person gets by listening to a work in the context of the composer's experience. It seems to be taken for granted now that Tchaikovsky was gay. There are many others who were gay with varying levels of openness. Schoenberg, Mendelssohn and Mahler were Jews who embraced Christianity and German nationality, which did not prevent cultural difficulties of various levels of seriousness. But unless there is a text, a program, or reference to folk or ethnic music, music is music. One can look for manifestations of alienation in the music, but that will always be open to interpretation. Brahms also suffered alienation, due to his prickly character.

And I doubt Herr Karajan was instructing his Berliner Philharmoniker musicians to imagine themselves gay as they performed the music...

[fbjim]

It can be tempting, sometimes, to excessively read biographical details into the work of an author- in fact, I think the last century or so of art analysis has trended away from behaviors like that!

"Queer art", or queer readings of art, I think, are less about going "well, this guy was gay, let's view every single note he wrote under this context" and more on works which - with textual support - fit into a queer context, or lend themselves to being analyzed that way. (and, of course, recently, there are more and more works written explicitly in a queer context, in the same way as some composers may have written in say, a Czech or German nationalist context back when)

It's worth noting that this does not even require the composer to be queer - Rzewski's "De Profundis" (admittedly, the text is by Oscar Wilde) has been taken up by a few queer pianists, for instance.

[not edward]

It's worth noting that this does not even require the composer to be queer - Rzewski's "De Profundis" (admittedly, the text is by Oscar Wilde) has been taken up by a few queer pianists, for instance.

Another parallel example might be Wuorinen's Brokeback Mountain, an opera on a gay topic by a gay composer based on a story by a straight woman.

[Gurn Blanston]

I certainly think there is a layer of richness that a person gets by listening to a work in the context of the composer's experience. It seems to be taken for granted now that Tchaikovsky was gay. There are many others who were gay with varying levels of openness. Schoenberg, Mendelssohn and Mahler were Jews who embraced Christianity and German nationality, which did not prevent cultural difficulties of various levels of seriousness. But unless there is a text, a program, or reference to folk or ethnic music, music is music. One can look for manifestations of alienation in the music, but that will always be open to interpretation. Brahms also suffered alienation, due to his prickly character.

And I doubt Herr Karajan was instructing his Berliner Philharmoniker musicians to imagine themselves gay as they performed the music...

Which notes are the gay ones?  I see this as a cultural issue,  not the least as a musical one.  It is possible that the otherness of the composer would attract new, curious listeners,  which is great,  but the music itself is just music,  and the innate character of the composer isn't going to add or subtract that nebulous ingredient called 'quality'. 🤔

🤠😎

[krummholz]

And then of course there is Tippett's "The Knot Garden", an opera (perhaps the first?) with a gay central character by a gay composer.

[Brian]

And then of course there is Tippett's "The Knot Garden", an opera (perhaps the first?) with a gay central character by a gay composer.

Alex Ross mentions it as probably the first with an overtly gay central character although of course before Tippett there were undeclared gay characters like Peter Grimes.

[fbjim]

"Thematically queer" doesn't necessarily mean that, as some people say (including bad English teachers attempting to teach the concepts of theme and symbolism to high-schoolers) that a work of art is "actually about" such and such topic. Better to say that - thematically - certain aspects have greater or different meaning to queer readers. Some of these themes can be universal - alienation from society, the suppression of one's self, violation of gender roles, etc- which can have different significance to us when the listener is queer, or if the context or text seriously inclines us to read those themes as queer themes.

This is a more general discussion than I intended, but I did feel like pointing out that stories, art, and music don't have to explicitly be "about" gay or queer people to be, in some way, queer. (Someone mentioned Peter Grimes - Billy Budd is an even more famous example, which Britten of course also set to music)

[krummholz]

Alex Ross mentions it as probably the first with an overtly gay central character although of course before Tippett there were undeclared gay characters like Peter Grimes.

I debated whether to say openly, but I had forgotten about Peter Grimes. I had even been thinking about Britten, but somehow that one just didn't come to mind. Thanks, good catch.

[Mandryka]

undeclared gay characters like Peter Grimes.

I don't think it helps to say Grimes is gay, and there's nothing in the opera to suggest that he's gay.

I can imagine someone reading Britten's Billy Budd in a queer way though -- though I don't think it's very helpful either. What are Budd and De Vere doing together offstage at the end of the opera, in the stateroom?

For me they key question is: what is gained by highlighting a queer reading of Budd? As opposed to saying it's about morality and the law.

Is Quint gay? Is Aschenbach?  I can't help thinking that a queer reading of Death in Venice, though possible, is reductive.

[Mandryka]

I debated whether to say openly, but I had forgotten about Peter Grimes. I had even been thinking about Britten, but somehow that one just didn't come to mind. Thanks, good catch.

If that's true, then it suggests that opera is way behind novels in this respect -- I'm thinking a lot about Balzac at the moment and there's a gay character in Pere Goriot (Vautrin)

At school I once argued (childishly in retrospect) that Coriolanus and Aufidius were lovers -- silly in retrospect, but I think it's a possible reading.

[not edward]

I don't think it helps to say Grimes is gay, and there's nothing in the opera to suggest that he's gay.

Alternative perspective: Peter Grimes is an opera written at a time when an explicitly gay character in an opera would lead to the opera not being performed and those associated with it being likely to be prosecuted for obscenity. The role of Grimes was written by a gay composer for his same-sex life partner, and in the opera, Grimes experiences the type of social ostracism typically experienced by people known to be gay at the time the opera was written. What is there in the opera to suggest that he is not gay?

[Karl Henning]

Alternative perspective: Peter Grimes is an opera written at a time when an explicitly gay character in an opera would lead to the opera not being performed and those associated with it being likely to be prosecuted for obscenity. The role of Grimes was written by a gay composer for his same-sex life partner, and in the opera, Grimes experiences the type of social ostracism typically experienced by people known to be gay at the time the opera was written. What is there in the opera to suggest that he is not gay?

Thanks, friend; I had never considered the piece in anything like this light.

[Mandryka]

Alternative perspective: Peter Grimes is an opera written at a time when an explicitly gay character in an opera would lead to the opera not being performed and those associated with it being likely to be prosecuted for obscenity.

I didn't know that. Lulu I guess is an exception to the rule, and anyway it was first performed in Europe. But it may not be so simple -- there's Soldiers in Skirts, for example

https://huddmusichallarchive.wordpress.com/2013/08/20/soliders-in-skirts/
https://www.bloomsburycollections.com/book/drag-histories-herstories-and-hairstories-drag-in-a-changing-scene-volume-2/ch4-soldiers-in-skirts-cross-dressing-ex-servicemen-sexuality-and-censorship-in-post-war-britain

(If I remember right, Grimes displeased the censors anyway at first, they argued that the hut scene was too violent and it was toned down. I may be wrong about that, but it's something I picked up somewhere.)

The role of Grimes was written by a gay composer for his same-sex life partner, and in the opera,

I think you need to distinguish the man from the works.

  Grimes experiences the type of social ostracism typically experienced by people known to be gay at the time the opera was written.

Grimes isn't ostracised in Acts 1 and 2.  He has a friend in Balstrode and a friend in Ellen, and indeed we have every reason to believe that Ellen would marry him. In Act 3 his is abandoned to his suicide, everyone lets him down.

What is there in the opera to suggest that he is not gay?

There must be a name for this move in a discussion!  What is there in Gotterdammerung to suggest that Siegfried is not gay? What is there in Wozzek to suggest that he is not gay?

The last point is worth thinking about -- Wozzek is an opera which Grimes resembles in many ways.