Why does structure matter?

[Mandryka]

In his early work, Morton Feldman used graphic charts to envision and map out a work, but later he become almost entirely intuitive in his writing.  But even composing intuitively, a composer uses his internal instincts to naturally create formal structure.

I just want to mention something which happened to me which (for once) made me shut up. I was talking about form to someone who normally wouldn't touch Feldman with a barge pole. I mentioned this idea that late Feldman is intuitive and played as an example something, I think it was For Philip Guston. He just turned round to me and said "What are you talking about? It's just a set of variations!"

[Cato]

People have a natural inclination towards order, or structure.  From arranging furniture in a room, to books on a shelf, flowers in a vase, to writing music.  Even if no structure exists, we will subconsciously will find order, relationships among the components, and create one for ourselves.

Precisely!

As a (formerly active) composer, I never had a "structure" in mind for a work, but followed the music to wherever it wanted to go, an idea which may sound very odd.  Imposing a strict structure on an idea at the beginning seemed like a strangulation.  The structure would evolve from the musical ideas themselves.

With a work like my Exaudi me, one might think that the structure is at least somewhat imposed by the text, but I used the text in a more idiosyncratic way: often the text's inherent ups and downs and longs and shorts will fashion the melody at least to some extent.  However, I somewhat did the opposite, and followed an idea of the singers exploring various ways of imploring Divinity to listen to them, with a solo soprano guiding them out of the initial chaos: the initial chaos hints that some sort of order must be wrought from it.

25 minutes later there is a massive bell-like climax, followed by the solo soprano's line slowly, in exhaustion, desperation, fading away.  But the work has hinted at such a finale earlier: one could say that the structure involved a back-and-forth (not exactly a dialogue) between the choir and the soloist, and occasionally among the choir (a double SATB).

[San Antone]

I just want to mention something which happened to me which (for once) made me shut up. I was talking about form to someone who normally wouldn't touch Feldman with a barge pole. I mentioned this idea that late Feldman is intuitive and played as an example something, I think it was For Philip Guston. He just turned round to me and said "What are you talking about? It's just a set of variations!"

Except, that Feldman himself described his process and finding the next gesture intuitively, based upon what he had written before. 

[Mandryka]

Except, that Feldman himself described his process and finding the next gesture intuitively, based upon what he had written before.

And how is that different from how Beethoven wrote the Diabelli variations?

I suspect the answer has to do with long range structure -- this idea of goal directedness which keeps coming up.

[San Antone]

And how is that different from how Beethoven wrote the Diabelli variations?

I suspect the answer has to do with long range structure -- this idea of goal directedness which keeps coming up.

Well, for one thing, Feldman did not write or have a theme that he was variating, as was Beethoven.  Schoenberg's method has been called constant variation sense the row is being constantly manipulated throughout the work.  But I do not think even this loose idea of variation is how Feldman was working.  He was responding to what his ear wished to hear next.

[prémont]

I just want to mention something which happened to me which (for once) made me shut up. I was talking about form to someone who normally wouldn't touch Feldman with a barge pole. I mentioned this idea that late Feldman is intuitive and played as an example something, I think it was For Philip Guston. He just turned round to me and said "What are you talking about? It's just a set of variations!"

It is thought provoking, that you, who undisputedly is a more educated and experienced listener than most, were unable to recognize any structure in the music. If the structure is that difficult to recognize, it may as well be absent,  and the sounding result will not be separable from noise.

[Mandryka]

it [form] may as well be absent, and the sounding result will not be separable from noise.

what I really want to explore is that comma -- is it a "therefore" or is it possible that something without perceivable form is poetry? Here's something to think about -- I don't believe there's a form there, I think it is music, poetic music. Or rather, it stands in some sort of relation which I haven't explored (yet) to paradigm cases of music. . . . Oh my god, even more things to think about!

https://www.youtube.com/v/8C6XlF_2VrQ&t=17s

[Mandryka]

Well, for one thing, Feldman did not write or have a theme that he was variating, as was Beethoven.  Schoenberg's method has been called constant variation sense the row is being constantly manipulated throughout the work.  But I do not think even this loose idea of variation is how Feldman was working.  He was responding to what his ear wished to hear next.

Why doesn't the theme appear in the first 10 seconds?

https://www.youtube.com/v/13WGthWZink

(I think it's a fabulous piece of music, just 20 times too long!)

He was responding to what his ear wished to hear next.

A friend of mine who makes a sort of living as a composer says he has tried to do this, but finds it impossibly hard to fill more that a couple of minutes!  Have you ever composed anything intuitively à  la Feldman, San Antonio?

[jess]

To my way of thinking the only thing that separates music from noise is structure.  Now, one can enjoy listening to noise, but that does not make noise music.

I would argue that it can if the listener wants to consider it as such. I mean, who is to argue with that?

[San Antone]

Why doesn't the theme appear in the first 10 seconds?

https://www.youtube.com/v/13WGthWZink

(I think it's a fabulous piece of music, just 20 times too long!)

A friend of mine who makes a sort of living as a composer says he has tried to do this, but finds it impossibly hard to fill more that a couple of minutes!  Have you ever composed anything intuitively à  la Feldman, San Antonio?

Feldman is making permutations of that melodic cell, which I think is different than variations of a theme.  No, I have never worked in the manner of Feldman's intuitive approach, but I believe him on how he composed.  It was also important to him for each gesture to be heard distinctly, separated by silence, and not seen as connected to the gestures before and after. 

[San Antone]

I would argue that it can if the listener wants to consider it as such. I mean, who is to argue with that?

I thought of that after I posted - but structure-less noise would require someone to make that determination, IOW, they would intentionally want to hear noise as musical.  Otherwise, noise remains noise, whereas a Beethoven sonata will be music no matter if anyone listens or not.

[prémont]

what I really want to explore is that comma -- is it a "therefore" or is it possible that something without perceivable form is poetry? Here's something to think about -- I don't believe there's a form there, I think it is music, poetic music. Or rather, it stands in some sort of relation which I haven't explored (yet) to paradigm cases of music. . . . Oh my god, even more things to think about!

https://www.youtube.com/v/8C6XlF_2VrQ&t=17s

I have listened to a small part of this (my attention span is far too short).  In some way I feel cheated, if this is to be considered music.  It makes me inevitably associate to The Emperor's New Clothes. But I'm probably just too old, conservative and hidebound.

[Mandryka]

I have listened to a small part of this (my attention span is far too short).  In some way I feel cheated, if this is to be considered music.  It makes me inevitably associate to The Emperor's New Clothes. But I'm probably just too old, conservative and hidebound.

I just find that he has the knack. a gift, for making a collage out of ready made sound snippets which feels natural and beautiful. I don't know if it's relation to paradigm cases of music is close enough for it to fall into the same category -- I mean, it may not be music at all! 

But I'm probably just too old.

You're only as old as you feel! 

[Mandryka]

I thought of that after I posted - but structure-less noise would require someone to make that determination, IOW, they would intentionally want to hear noise as musical.  Otherwise, noise remains noise, whereas a Beethoven sonata will be music no matter if anyone listens or not.

What do you make of Presque Rien, the Ferrari?

[Mandryka]

  It was also important to him for each gesture to be heard distinctly, separated by silence, and not seen as connected to the gestures before and after.

That's interesting. Do you know why? I'm just trying to get a better handle on what he was trying to achieve.

[Mandryka]

Precisely!

As a (formerly active) composer, I never had a "structure" in mind for a work, but followed the music to wherever it wanted to go, an idea which may sound very odd.  Imposing a strict structure on an idea at the beginning seemed like a strangulation.  The structure would evolve from the musical ideas themselves.

With a work like my Exaudi me, one might think that the structure is at least somewhat imposed by the text, but I used the text in a more idiosyncratic way: often the text's inherent ups and downs and longs and shorts will fashion the melody at least to some extent.  However, I somewhat did the opposite, and followed an idea of the singers exploring various ways of imploring Divinity to listen to them, with a solo soprano guiding them out of the initial chaos: the initial chaos hints that some sort of order must be wrought from it.

25 minutes later there is a massive bell-like climax, followed by the solo soprano's line slowly, in exhaustion, desperation, fading away.  But the work has hinted at such a finale earlier: one could say that the structure involved a back-and-forth (not exactly a dialogue) between the choir and the soloist, and occasionally among the choir (a double SATB).

I want to hear it! You've sold me a ticket. Is it recorded anywhere.

[San Antone]

What do you make of Presque Rien, the Ferrari?

I used to listen to Ferrari, and others of that style, but not for some time.  Musique concrete is not a genre that interests me anymore. 

[San Antone]

That's interesting. Do you know why? I'm just trying to get a better handle on what he was trying to achieve.

There is a quote from him something to the effect that he wanted to "liberate the sounds".  I understand him to mean to liberate them from functional harmony, or from precisely the kind of function a chord, or melodic cell would have in a tonal environment.  But it has been a while since I read his thoughts on this idea.  It probably is something in Give My Regards to Eighth Street.

[prémont]

I just find that he has the knack. a gift, for making a collage out of ready made sound snippets which feels natural and beautiful. I don't know if it's relation to paradigm cases of music is close enough for it to fall into the same category -- I mean, it may not be music at all! 

Well, yes - but there is so much other (real) music,  I rather want to spend my time with.

You're only as old as you feel!

True, but in this context I feel older, than I am.

[Mandryka]

There is a quote from him something to the effect that he wanted to "liberate the sounds".  I understand him to mean to liberate them from functional harmony, or from precisely the kind of function a chord, or melodic cell would have in a tonal environment.  But it has been a while since I read his thoughts on this idea.  It probably is something in Give My Regards to Eighth Street.

Was it you who once read a book on Cage which you recommended really enthusiastically? Or was it someone else?