Coronavirus thread

[T. D.]

I had a haircut today! 

Excellent! I had one on Tuesday, June 23. Barber had reopened (appt. only, 1 customer in shop at a time) June 9, but out of caution I waited 2 weeks. The haircut was sorely needed.

[SimonNZ]

Exhibit A: True case in Romania.

A small town, social-democratic mayor. For years and years citizens living on street X petitioned the mayor with a request for repairing the asphalt of their street, to no avail whatsoever. Eventually, they assembled as active citizenry, put their money together, hired a contractor and repaired the street on their own  money. Net result: the then social-democratic active government sued them for doing illegal works on public roads.

I'd like to see a link for that to get the whole story.

Because my first reaction is that there are all manner of complexities and knock on effects of doing something as seemingly simple as paving a road that citizenry wouldn't have been aware of. Water and power utilities are usually laid below street plans and they could potentially damage them or at least hinder access to repair. Streets need to be graded in specific ways to allow water runoff and have drainage for that runoff. The material used needs to have specific characteristics to limit skiding or sliding. And so on and so on. Hundreds of moving parts that require coordination and the accumulated best practices of decades of study.

I'd also like to see from the original story how much they paid for what quality they got vs the same via taxation and a government approved contractor.

[SimonNZ]

It should be quite clear that I said neither of those things.

[drogulus]

Which is why it constantly necessary to point out that there are very few problems government can solve.

     Everything government does is a solution, and it can also be a a problem. The method can be described as trading old problems for new ones we would prefer to have. We'll never stop doing it no matter what's pointed out.

     Libertarians don't have much to offer that's different from more disciplined and realistic appraisals of order versus liberty tradeoffs. What they offer is a form of utopian denial of the problem. If only we didn't have government we wouldn't have problems for government to solve. No one lives that way and no one ever will. The ideas are not designed for practical use.

[Florestan]

I'd also like to see from the original story how much they paid for what quality they got vs the same via taxation and a government approved contractor.

Anyone would have understood from my post that the (local) government did extract taxes from them and did nothing at all in return, not even setting up an auction for the street work --- for years.

Your retort is on the same league as those who belittled Mother Theresa of Calcutta for having taken care of Indian lepers for 50 years --- yeah, well, but she was no medically trained nurse!

[Pohjolas Daughter]

I had a haircut today! 

Whoo hooooo! Congrats Jeffrey!

Still long here....one of these days!

PD

[JBS]

     Everything government does is a solution, and it can also be a a problem. The method can be described as trading old problems for new ones we would prefer to have. We'll never stop doing it no matter what's pointed out.

     Libertarians don't have much to offer that's different from more disciplined and realistic appraisals of order versus liberty tradeoffs. What they offer is a form of utopian denial of the problem. If only we didn't have government we wouldn't have problems for government to solve. No one lives that way and no one ever will. The ideas are not designed for practical use.

Crime and health care access are problems. Can they be permanently  solved? Of course not. They can, however, be managed. Over the centuries experience has shown government is the best way to manage the problem of crime.  We've had a much shorter span of experience dealing with health care, of course,  So far experience has shown  government  to be a sub-optimal manager of health care.

Libertarianism  does not deny any problems. It merely points to three truths: Some problems can not be solved. For those  that can be solved, government is often  not the best solution. And often  government becomes a bigger problem than the problems it claims  to solve,

Libertarianism  is in fact the most realistic appraisal of liberty vs order, because it doesn't  pretend  government  is something  government  is not.

[SimonNZ]

Anyone but a fanatical statist would have understood from my post that the (local) government did extract taxes from them and did nothing at all in return, not even setting up an auction for the street work --- for years.

Your retort is on the same league as those who belittled Mother Theresa of Calcutta for having taken care of Indian lepers for 50 years --- yeah, well, but she was no trained medical nurse!

Disgusting and morally bankrupt.

I have no idea why you're getting so upset.

Which town or city is it you're talking about?
I'd like to look further into it.

[Karl Henning]

And, from San Antonio, TX: Doctor: The patients are getting younger and are more sick

[Florestan]

I have no idea why you're getting so upset.

I've been very stressed as of late and become irascible. I'm sorry.

Which town or city is it you're talking about?
I'd like to look further into it.

https://www.digi24.ro/stiri/actualitate/evenimente/trimisi-in-judecata-pentru-ca-au-asfaltat-singuri-drumul-492619

Romanian only but if you click on the video you can actually see the road and the repairing. I didn't remember correctly all the details: they didn't even hire a contractor, they repaired the holes themselves.

[SimonNZ]

Thanks. And don't worry about it. I shouldn't have added the "libertarian" dig to my criticism of the Politico article, so that ones on me.

[Florestan]

Thanks. And don't worry about it. I shouldn't have added the "libertarian" dig to my criticism of the Politico article, so that ones on me.

Thank you too. Btw, I am not a libertarian.

EDIT: In principle, you are right that repairing a road might not be as straighforward and it could involve taking care of the underground utilities network. But in this case it was not so. The road was littered with holes which damaged their cars and fed up with waiting in vain for the government to do its duty they took the matter in their own hands. To sue them for that (punishment being a fine ro even 6 months in prison) strikes me as profoundly unjust and downright idiotic. Here you have a government which actively discourages citizens from being active.

[drogulus]

Oh I agree --- people want governments to solve problems. Only problem is, (modern & democratic) governments solve problems at a slower rate than they create them. 

     Most people know that governments that refuse to solve problems (or create more than they solve) should be voted out.

     Governments do fix roads, and people would rather do their own jobs than do jobs governments exist to do.

     I don't want to create my own money, police my town, take care of water and sanitation, invade my least favorite countries, make friends with my favorite dictators or take care of the poor and elderly. I delegate the responsibility. I don't think pandemics can be fought by me and my pals.

     Final point, because liberty fantasies have no practical meaning it's clear that they can't improve function. They can only prevent function. They are a way for governments to not fix roads. But, as in the Romanian case, governments don't need a liberty ideology to not fix roads, they can just not fix them, while the citizenry retreats into a fantasy about how governments are not supposed to fix them, thus turning defeat into some kind of victory. I'd prefer to vote in a government that fixes the damn road. That works.

     

[Karl Henning]

I've been very stressed as of late and become irascible. I'm sorry.

Courage!

[drogulus]

Crime and health care access are problems. Can they be permanently  solved? Of course not. They can, however, be managed. Over the centuries experience has shown government is the best way to manage the problem of crime.  We've had a much shorter span of experience dealing with health care, of course,  So far experience has shown  government  to be a sub-optimal manager of health care.

Libertarianism  does not deny any problems. It merely points to three truths: Some problems can not be solved. For those  that can be solved, government is often  not the best solution. And often  government becomes a bigger problem than the problems it claims  to solve,

Libertarianism  is in fact the most realistic appraisal of liberty vs order, because it doesn't  pretend  government  is something  government  is not.

     The answer will not be found in absolute pronouncements but in improving function. That's something we do, so we might as well put it in an ideology.

     Public health measures are not brand new. Medicare works well, and to the extent it doesn't work optimally, it can be improved. The liberty view would have to be that Medicare doesn't work because it's government, which doesn't solve problems. The facts can be ignored if they don't fit the fantasy.

     Which problems can be solved or managed or lived with are empirical questions that policy makers must wrestle with, and the citizens who elect representatives have to wrestle with them, too. Imposing an a priori truth regimen about some problems not having solutions adds nothing of value. However well or poorly Medicare or Social Security work can't be determined that way. No ideology provides you with useful clues as to how "hollowed out" the CDC should be, or how much infrastructure not to build. All it can do is offer thin excuses for not acting to repair what fools have destroyed. See, bad government proves government is bad. I don't accept this. I think we can do better than make excuses for bad policy.

[T. D.]

My county in NY had been doing well. I follow the statistics daily, and there was an alarming spike on Friday. No explanation from the County (holiday weekend), but the following story has appeared:
https://www.dailyfreeman.com/news/local-news/ulster-county-spike-in-coronavirus-cases-linked-to-four-clusters/article_2f6932f6-bd76-11ea-8db6-1b7fb956433a.html
Potential clusters: prison(s), high school graduation party(ies), factory workers, migrant farm workers.

[drogulus]

My county in NY had been doing well. I follow the statistics daily, and there was an alarming spike on Friday. No explanation from the County (holiday weekend), but the following story has appeared:
https://www.dailyfreeman.com/news/local-news/ulster-county-spike-in-coronavirus-cases-linked-to-four-clusters/article_2f6932f6-bd76-11ea-8db6-1b7fb956433a.html
Potential clusters: prison(s), high school graduation party(ies), factory workers, migrant farm workers.

     I have quasi-relatives in Genesee county, just outside Buffalo. They've had 581 cases and 64 deaths from a population of 58,000. Proportionally the numbers are close to Watertown, MA.

     I went to a local restaurant the other day. It was strange to be sitting in a booth eating food. I do worry some that Massachusetts will become complacent now that the numbers have gone down.

[JBS]

     The answer will not be found in absolute pronouncements but in improving function. That's something we do, so we might as well put it in an ideology.

     Public health measures are not brand new. Medicare works well, and to the extent it doesn't work optimally, it can be improved. The liberty view would have to be that Medicare doesn't work because it's government, which doesn't solve problems. The facts can be ignored if they don't fit the fantasy.

     Which problems can be solved or managed or lived with are empirical questions that policy makers must wrestle with, and the citizens who elect representatives have to wrestle with them, too. Imposing an a priori truth regimen about some problems not having solutions adds nothing of value. However well or poorly Medicare or Social Security work can't be determined that way. No ideology provides you with useful clues as to how "hollowed out" the CDC should be, or how much infrastructure not to build. All it can do is offer thin excuses for not acting to repair what fools have destroyed. See, bad government proves government is bad. I don't accept this. I think we can do better than make excuses for bad policy.

Government is always inefficient. Therefore it is useful only when non governmental means are even less efficient.   That is not ideology. It's a fact for which we have millenia of history to provide confirming data. 

[MusicTurner]

Government is always inefficient. Therefore it is useful only when non governmental means are even less efficient.   That is not ideology. It's a fact for which we have millenia of history to provide confirming data.

Have you been abroad?

[drogulus]

Government is always inefficient.

     It's efficient for government to do the things we ask government to do. It's more inefficient to leave them undone.

     I view government as the means by which private action can be most profitable. Its efficiency must be measured accordingly. Jobs, wages, profits and other measures of advancement should include the government contribution. The most advanced economies have large government sectors relative to basic functions like agriculture and manufacturing. I see that as an efficient use of resources. If we all were employed as farmers, factory workers and mechanics we'd be a poor country. No rich country is like that. One has to conclude that measuring government as inefficient is missing something very big, and since it's in plain sight that rich countries have large government sectors, one must find the source of the mis-measurement.

     Government builds the platforms on which private industries can efficiently run. The tendency is to attribute efficiency to the private contribution that follows on what government builds.