Coronavirus thread

[Florestan]

the immunity after the disease or vaccination is always relative. It doesn't ensure that you don't get infected again (even with the same strain of virus), but it gives a reasonable probability, that the disease the second time runs a milder course, even if you also will be contagious again.

But, but, but --- if after vaccination you will possibly be contagious again, then why the upcoming discrimination between vaccinated and non-vaccinated people?

[prémont]

Why?

Look, I'm not a virologist, I'm an engineer. By engineering logic, it jiust doesn't look right to me that something which is naturally genuine and wild evokes a weaker response than something which is laboratory manipulated and tamed.

Because the virologists have become so clever and the technical measures have become so refined, that it is possible construct vaccines which surpass the nature.

[Florestan]

Because the virologists have become so clever and the technical measures have become so refined, that it is possible construct vaccines which surpass the nature.

Maybe. Then again, maybe not. I reserve judgement until definitive, irrefutable proof --- ie, ad calendas graecas..

Meanwhile let me just say this: if I'm not mistaken, 30 million people in the UK have been vaccinated with AstraZeneca. If the conspiracy theory were right, then we should have witnessed tens of thousands of deaths because of it --- which is very far from being the case. I believe the whole AZ kerfurffle is commercially and politically motivated.

[prémont]

But, but, but --- if after vaccination you will possibly be contagious again, then why the upcoming discrimination between vaccinated and non-vaccinated people?

I believe that this is somehow politically motivated with the conscious or unconscious purpose of motivating all adults to be vaccinated, which is also what benefits public health best and provides the best opportunity to reopen society as much as possible. But the idea of a corona passport is questionable, as the passport can never provide full assurance that the person in question is not infected, but only a greater probability that he is not infected. There will still be some people with corona passports who are infected.

[prémont]

Maybe. Then again, maybe not. I reserve judgement until definitive, irrefutable proof --- ie, ad calendas graecas..

Meanwhile let me just say this: if I'm not mistaken, 30 million people in the UK have been vaccinated with AstraZeneca. If the conspiracy theory were right, then we should have witnessed tens of thousands of deaths because of it --- which is very far from being the case. I believe the whole AZ kerfurffle is commercially and politically motivated.

The serious side effects after the A-Z vaccine are very rare, but obviously affect much younger people whose risk of dying from Covid 19 is relatively small. So maybe younger people should have another vaccine. On the other hand, it is stated that the degree of protection of this vaccine is less than that of the other vaccines, so perhaps older vulnerable individuals should not have it either. And who is then left to get it?

[Florestan]

the idea of a corona passport is questionable, as the passport can never provide full assurance that the person in question is not infected, but only a greater probability that he is not infected. There will still be some people with corona passports who are infected.

And there will still be people without corona passports who are not infected.

The issue is a whole can of worms. Bottom line, I'm in favor of a "passport" with three options: vaccine, positive antibodies test, PCR negative test. Desperate measures for desperate times.

[Florestan]

it is stated that the degree of protection of this vaccine is less than that of the other vaccines

Stated by which internationally certified and acknowledged scientific organization?

[prémont]

Stated by which internationally certified and acknowledged scientific organization?

Stated by the producers of the vaccines, who are supposed to know the most about it.

[Florestan]

Stated by the producers of the vaccines, who are supposed to know the most about it.

Have the producers of AstraZeneca publicly stated that their vaccine is less effective than other similar vaccines? Has the EMA stated it?

Bottom line: do you imply that those who took AZ are less immune and more endangered than those who took Pfizer or Moderna?

[prémont]

Have the producers of AstraZeneca publicly stated that their vaccine is less effective than other similar vaccines?

The result of the A-Z phase III test was published in the Lancet:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)32661-1/fulltext

The preliminary conclusion was a degree of protection lower (70% overall) than the published degree of protection from the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines. Preliminary because further studies must be made with all vaccines.

[Florestan]

The result of the A-Z phase III test was published in the Lancet:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)32661-1/fulltext

The preliminary conclusion was a degree of protection lower (70% overall) than the published degree of protection from the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines. Preliminary because further studies must be made with all vaccines.

A-hah!

IMHO, the whole AZ kerfuffle is politically and commercially motivated: the UK and Sweden are the two European countries taking the most unorthodox approach to the Covid pandemics and the AZ vaccine is the cheapest EMA approved vaccine.

Bottom line: would you take the AZ vaccine?

[prémont]

Bottom line: would you take the AZ vaccine?

No, I am >70 and particularly at risk to get serious course of Covid19 because of other disease. For that reason I needed to get a RNA-vaccine (Pfizer/Moderna) which other than an antibody response (B-cells) also evokes a significant T-cell response. Fortunately the vaccine policy of my country took this into consideration.

[Florestan]

No, I am >70 and particularly at risk to get serious course of Covid19 because of other disease. For that reason I needed to get a RNA-vaccine (Pfizer/Moderna) which other than an antibody response (B-cells) also evokes a significant T-cell response. Fortunately the vaccine policy of my country took this into consideration.

So what you say is basically that both the producers of AZ and the EMA are untrustworthy sources, and that the AZ vaccine cause serious, if not lethal, troubles.

Exactly, and point by point, what Romanian conspiracy theorists claim.

If I misunderstood you, I apologize. Please clarify.

[prémont]

So what you say is basically that both the producers of AZ and the EMA are untrustworthy sources, and that the AZ vaccine cause serious, if not lethal, troubles.

Exactly, and point by point, what Romanian conspiracy theorists claim.

If I misunderstood you, I apologize. Please clarify.

I don't understand how you came to that conclusion. I wrote above about my own situation and my own need for protection, seen from a medical point of view. This has nothing with politics or conspiration theories to do. I don't think I would be particularly at risk of serious complications (which are very rare and mostly affects younger individuals) from the A-Z vaccine, but the vaccines act differently and the A-Z vaccine doesn't fill my need for protection from a medical point of view. Given my preexisting disease the A-Z vaccine is supposed to give me as well as no protection at all. So it would be waste to give me that vaccine. Read my post above once more - or twice if you still don't get it.

[Holden]

If you've had COVID then surely the T cells in your body were activated - yes?

I've always wondered about levels of immunity to various viruses being a result of the severity of the infection. When I was 23 I got a dose of the flu that came close to hospitalising me. (I probably should have been). Since then I have never had the flu (and rarely get colds) and I attribute it to the fact that the this bout of the flu was so strong it produced an extreme reaction from my immune system that has lasted 56 years.

One thing that we need to focus on with the vaccination program is that while it will not necessarily prevent reinfection, it will lessen the severity of the infection, basically turning COVID into a milder virus and significantly reducing the possibility of death. In other words we will go from pandemic to endemic. This should happen in many parts of the world this year. A yearly COVID vaccination booster might also be part of the scenario, similar to the yearly flu shots now available.

[André]

If you've had COVID then surely the T cells in your body were activated - yes?

I've always wondered about levels of immunity to various viruses being a result of the severity of the infection. When I was 23 I got a dose of the flu that came close to hospitalising me. (I probably should have been). Since then I have never had the flu (and rarely get colds) and I attribute it to the fact that the this bout of the flu was so strong it produced an extreme reaction from my immune system that has lasted 56 years.

One thing that we need to focus on with the vaccination program is that while it will not necessarily prevent reinfection, it will lessen the severity of the infection, basically turning COVID into a milder virus and significantly reducing the possibility of death. In other words we will go from pandemic to endemic. This should happen in many parts of the world this year. A yearly COVID vaccination booster might also be part of the scenario, similar to the yearly flu shots now available.

I agree, that should be the effect of the vaccine. Whenever one catches it, its deleterious effects will have been neutralized. I'm getting the shot tomorrow morning. Hopefully my immune system won't react as wildly as yours !

[DavidW]

Why?

Look, I'm not a virologist, I'm an engineer. By engineering logic, it jiust doesn't look right to me that something which is naturally genuine and wild evokes a weaker response than something which is laboratory manipulated and tamed.

I think that this line of thinking implicitly assumes that the vaccines are traditional vaccines.  But the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are not weaker forms of the virus or inert at all.  They are messenger RNA.  Whatever intuitive understanding of how vaccines work is out the door in our modern age.

[DavidW]

Oh and I got my second dose!

[Karl Henning]

Oh and I got my second dose!

Sweet!

[Mandryka]

Is Britain sleepwalking into a highly controlled society, with Covid passports the thin end of the wedge?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/apr/02/senior-tories-join-jeremy-corbyn-to-oppose-covid-passports-ahead-of-trials

Little by little we sacrifice liberty for security, until we end up with an authoritarian society à la Communist Europe after the war. This, I believe, is the great political danger of the moment.