Coronavirus thread

[Todd]

I'd say that given the right moment, the right opportunity and the right propaganda, totalitarianism can happen everywhere

See, from an American perspective, I'm not concerned about totalitarianism.  Nah, here we could end up with a new form of segregation based on public health policy.  If you ain't got the right kind of card, you can't enter certain establishments.  We don't serve your kind. That kind of thing.  (The fact that certain minority communities remain disproportionately less vaccinated is purely coincidental.)

[MusicTurner]

Sorry to hear that you are not feeling well MT.  Hoping for the best for you and warm chicken soup thoughts your way.
(...)

Thank you, it sounds nice with the soup. My 2nd test was negative too, and I'll probably be totally fine in a couple of days.

[MusicTurner]

Firstly: The vaccines can to a large degree reduce infections. It's true that vaccinated people also spread the virus when infected but they do this in a shorter period and to a lesser degree. Therefore the interest the society has got in getting all people vaccinated making them less contagious to the vulnerable group of the society.

Secondly: The vaccines reduce to some extent clinical disease. This means that unvaccinated people get more ill when infected and will need hospitalisation more often. This may by itself become a large burden upon the hospitals, which will affect the treatment of other diseases eg. of vaccinated people.

I would have to, but only physical contact of course. I belong to the ultravulnerable group with a high risk of serious disease if I get infected.

Its too easy to talk about fear. It's reality.

Obvious facts. I appreciate that DK avoided excess mortality so far.

[Karl Henning]

Would you mind to elaborate?

God bless you, my friend.

[Florestan]

The vaccines can to a large degree reduce infections. It's true that vaccinated people also spread the virus when infected but they do this in a shorter period and to a lesser degree.

Then how comes that highly vaccinated countries witness an alarming surge in infections, so alarming that they have to go the lockdown way yet again?

Therefore the interest the society has got in getting all people vaccinated making them less contagious to the vulnerable group of the society.

If I remember correctly, all countries started the vaccination precisely with the vulnerable goups of society. Are you telling me the vaccines don't actually protect them?

The vaccines reduce to some extent clinical disease.

This is not what he have been told in the beginning. We have been told "Get vaccinated in order to return to normal life!" We have been lied to, don't you think?

This means that unvaccinated people get more ill when infected and will need hospitalisation more often.

How about unvaccinated people who have got Covid and recovered? Is their naturally-acquired immunity to be overlooked or downright negated? How about unvaccinated people who never ever had Covid? Is their innate immunity to be overlooked or downright negated?

What you suggest amounts to a presumption of guilt regarding the unvaccinated which is utterly unacceptable.

This may by itself become a large burden upon the hospitals, which will affect the treatment of other diseases eg. of vaccinated people.

So what do you propose? To have the underclass of unvaccinated denied treatment?

I would have to, but only physical contact of course. I belong to the ultravulnerable group with a high risk of serious disease if I get infected.

I'm sorry to hear that and I hope you stay safe all the time. But in this caes you should beware of vaccinated people as well --- actually, you should get in direct contact only with people whio have tested negative --- which is the only way to tell who is infected and who is not with some degree of accuracy.

Its too easy to talk about fear. It's reality.

Fear is part iof reality.

[Karl Henning]

Firstly: The vaccines can to a large degree reduce infections. It's true that vaccinated people also spread the virus when infected but they do this in a shorter period and to a lesser degree. Therefore the interest the society has got in getting all people vaccinated making them less contagious to the vulnerable group of the society.

Secondly: The vaccines reduce to some extent clinical disease. This means that unvaccinated people get more ill when infected and will need hospitalisation more often. This may by itself become a large burden upon the hospitals, which will affect the treatment of other diseases eg. of vaccinated people.

I would have to, but only physical contact of course. I belong to the ultravulnerable group with a high risk of serious disease if I get infected.

Its too easy to talk about fear. It's reality.

All sober good sense.

[Karl Henning]

Thank you, it sounds nice with the soup. My 2nd test was negative too, and I'll probably be totally fine in a couple of days.

Mend quickly!

[prémont]

Aggression is not understandable.

Maybe I should add, that I didn't think of physical aggression, which of course isn't understandable.

[Florestan]

Unvaxxed and antivaxxers are different groups, even if there is some overlap.

A crucial distinction, thanks for making it.

Probably important for people to be extra careful in how they conceive of these two groups. Unvaxxed are mostly not antisocial.

Amen, brother!

[prémont]

Thank you, it sounds nice with the soup. My 2nd test was negative too, and I'll probably be totally fine in a couple of days.

Good to hear. So probably not corona.

[Todd]

Then how comes that highly vaccinated countries witness an alarming surge in infections, so alarming that they have to go the lockdown way yet again?

Vaccines will, it is hoped, prevent death and serious complications.  Current evidence indicates that is what happens.  Clearly vaccines cannot prevent the spread of the disease.  That's been known for a while.  Anecdotally, I had an employee who was fully vaccinated yet contracted Covid twice afterward, and that was months before omicron.  In the health care delivery company I cited earlier, "breakthrough" infections are common, and have been all year.  The benefits of vaccination are quite clear. 

This is, of course, entirely distinct from the self-righteous displays of people who now justify any and every expansion of state power in the name of public health.

Fear is part of reality.

As are rationales for "aggression".

Maybe I should add, that I didn't think of physical aggression, which of course isn't understandable.

Public intimidation is just as bad. 

[Florestan]

here we could end up with a new form of segregation based on public health policy.  If you ain't got the right kind of card, you can't enter certain establishments.

It's already happening in the EU, Romania included.

[MusicTurner]

Mend quickly!

Thanks!

Good to hear. So probably not corona.

Indeed, thank you. It's understandable BTW what you should choose to engage in here.

[Florestan]

Vaccines will, it is hoped, prevent death and serious complications.  Current evidence indicates that is what happens.  Clearly vaccines cannot prevent the spread of the disease.  That's been known for a while.  Anecdotally, I had an employee who was fully vaccinated yet contracted Covid twice afterward, and that was months before omicron.  In the health care delivery company I cited earlier, "breakthrough" infections are common, and have been all year.  The benefits of vaccination are quite clear. 

This is, of course, entirely distinct from the self-righteous displays of people who now justify any and every expansion of state power in the name of public health.

Aye.

[Florestan]

Maybe I should add, that I didn't think of physical aggression, which of course isn't understandable.

Painting slogans on shop windows or walls is not physical aggression but their psychological effect is just as bad. And what guarantee do we have that some deranged people will not get from painting slogans to actual physical aggressions, especially with the demonization of unvaccinated going full speed and virtually unopposed in the media?

[Karl Henning]

A little amusing, Andrei, that you did not highlight Huggy Bear's :  The benefits of vaccination are quite clear. The benefits of mandating vaccination are also quite clear. Decrying that as Big Brother is a self-righteous fantasy all its own. Why, perhsps it is even fear-mongering.

Separately, some good news: South Africa's huge omicron wave appears to be subsiding just as quickly as it grew

I wish I could say that suggests that US hospitals are not in danger of being over-stressed, but we cannot, in good reason, can we?

[Mandryka]

See, from an American perspective, I'm not concerned about totalitarianism.  Nah, here we could end up with a new form of segregation based on public health policy.  If you ain't got the right kind of card, you can't enter certain establishments.  We don't serve your kind. That kind of thing.  (The fact that certain minority communities remain disproportionately less vaccinated is purely coincidental.)

A sort of de facto apartheid.

[Todd]

Painting slogans on shop windows or walls is not physical aggression but their psychological effect is just as bad. And what guarantee do we have that some deranged people will not get from painting slogans to actual physical aggressions, especially with the demonization of unvaccinated going full speed and virtually unopposed in the media?

Aggression is understandable.  See an earlier post.

A sort of de facto apartheid.

Yes, and one with a public health justification.  This is not the first time that public health has been abused for self-righteous political purposes.

[prémont]

Then how comes that highly vaccinated countries witness an alarming surge in infections, so alarming that they have to go the lockdown way yet again?

Because of the highly contagious omikron, which makes more lockdown necessary. This was not actual to the same degree with the delta.

If I remember correctly, all countries started the vaccination precisely with the vulnerable goups of society. Are you telling me the vaccines don't actually protect them?

They offer some protection for the elderly and vulnerable, but probably not enough against the omikron, whereas they offer better protection for those with a well-functioning immunesystem.

This is not what he have been told in the beginning. We have been told "Get vaccinated in order to return to normal life!" We have been lied to, don't you think?

This was in the days of the delta, before the omikron emerged. It has changed the game. Now we can only hope to keep it somewhat down if everybody is vaccinated and a number of restrictions observed.

How about unvaccinated people who have got Covid and recovered? Is their naturally-acquired immunity to be overlooked or downright negated? How about unvaccinated people who never ever had Covid? Is their innate immunity to be overlooked or downright negated?

The naturally acquired immunity doesn't seem to last longer than immunity after vaccination. And all people 50+ run a greater risk than necessary when they are not vaccinated.  I might understand the scepticism against vaccination, if vaccination was associated with a high degree of side-effects. But this isn't the case.

What you suggest amounts to a presumption of guilt regarding the unvaccinated which is utterly unacceptable.

I don't think guilt is the right word. But I think the unvaccinated exert an asocial and reckless behaviour, bringing others at risk much more than they need.

So what do you propose? To have the underclass of unvaccinated denied treatment?

Of course not. But I think it is fair to exclude them from different social activities, travelling et.c. and also jobs particularly in the health care section.

I'm sorry to hear that and I hope you stay safe all the time. But in this caes you should beware of vaccinated people as well --- actually, you should get in direct contact only with people whio have tested negative --- which is the only way to tell who is infected and who is not with some degree of accuracy.

You have a point there. But else I should isolate myself completely, and this might affect my mental state in the long run. But actually the health authorities here recommend testing before one visits older vulnerable relatives. Ideally this presupposes a PCR test, which you can't get that easily now because of the increasing demand.

Fear is part of reality.

Maybe we agree, maybe not. I hinted at fear based upon reality.

[Florestan]

A little amusing, Andrei, that you did not highlight [Todd]'s :  The benefits of vaccination are quite clear.

They are quite clear in reducing the number of hospitalizations and deaths. They are far from being so quite clear in reducing the number of infections --- actually, data suggest they don't reduce infections in any significant degree. If they did, then the current lockdowns and restrictions in many EU countries would be wholly unjustified.

The benefits of mandating vaccination are also quite clear.

Last I checked, mandating a medical procedure on anyone without their informed consent is contrary to international law, Romanian law included.

Decrying that as Big Brother is a self-righteous fantasy all its own. Why, perhsps it is even fear-mongering.

Making people healthy against their will is akin to making people virtuous against their will or making people happy against their will: authoritarianism in a nutshell --- We, the Governments and Experts know best what's best for ordinary people's good and we will make them healthy/virtuous/happy whether they like it or not: if they don't know it, we'll teach them; if they can't do it, we'll help them; if they won't do it, we'll force them.

Different pretext, same goal.

Separately, some good news: South Africa's huge omicron wave appears to be subsiding just as quickly as it grew

I wish I could say that suggests that US hospitals are not in danger of being over-stressed, but we cannot, in good reason, can we?

Of course you can't. Had you read the SA article I quoted above, you'd have leearned that much. The SA scientists claim that a high vaccine-induced immunity but a low disease-and-recover immunity (which is exactly the case for many Western countries) is no guarantee for mildness. But they're never quoted in New York Times or Washington Post.