USA Politics (redux)

[Fëanor]

Just watched a segment on CNN in which one of the anchors talked about his use of gumballs to give viewers a sense of the number of false and misleading statements that Trump has made over the course of his time in the White House (according to reports from the Washington Post).  Hard to fathom....roughly 30,000+!

PD

Yeah, that was Victor Blackwell.  You've got to wonder why people are able to believe an endless stream of lies and misinformation ... is it because they want to believe it?

It's a dangerous place when people believe what they want to instead of what is founded on facts and reason.

[Que]

It's a dangerous place when people believe what they want to instead of what is founded on facts and reason.

Basic human nature, I'm afraid.

This is why there is a heavy burden of responsibility on politicians, civil servants and journalists to tell or uncover the truth.
Any lie is afterall designed to sound much more appealing than any truth.

Q

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Yeah, that was Victor Blackwell.  You've got to wonder why people are able to believe an endless stream of lies and misinformation ... is it because they want to believe it?

It's a dangerous place when people believe what they want to instead of what is founded on facts and reason.

Oh, to be delusional!   

[Florestan]

Basic human nature, I'm afraid.

Before you posted this, I typed something along the same lines but didn't click "Post" because it would have been a violation of my own resolution not to post in political threads anymore. Your post above, which is only too true, encourages me to do it nevertheless. So here is what I have to say with respect to the topic at hand:

The world at large has always been a very dangerous place.

[Fëanor]

Before you posted this, I typed something along the same lines but didn't click "Post" because it would have been a violation of my own resolution not to post in political threads anymore. Your post above, which is only too true, encourages me to do it nevertheless. So here is what I have to say with respect to the topic at hand:

The world at large has always been a very dangerous place.

Indeed.  If ever the USA was "a city upon a hill" that day has past:  a great pity.  To whom can the world look today for leadership?

[Florestan]

Indeed.  If ever the USA was "a city upon a hill" that day has past:  a great pity.  To whom can the world look today for leadership?

I beg to differ. If anything, the last two weeks have shown the world that democracy and rule of law are resilient and fully functional in the USA --- and that they can still teach the whole world a thing or two about them. As far as I'm concerned, the democratic, freedom-loving world can have no other leader than the one they had for decades, namely the USA. There'll be a cold day in Hell before China or Russia would take their place.

[Brahmsian]

I beg to differ. If anything, the last two weeks have shown the world that democracy and rule of law are resilient and fully functional in the USA --- and that they can still teach the whole world a thing or two about them. As far as I'm concerned, the democratic, freedom-loving world can have no other leader than the one they had for decades, namely the USA. There'll be a cold day in Hell before China or Russia would take their place.

Hmmm, I think the bar is set extremely low if we still consider the USA as being the beacon and pillar of democracy. Notwithstanding comparing it to Russia, China, North Korea, etc.

[Mirror Image]

From this distance: no and no - now that everyone is prepared.

Hope I'm right.

I hope you're right as well. Crossing my fingers nothing terrible happens.

[Florestan]

Hmmm, I think the bar is set extremely low if we still consider the USA as being the beacon and pillar of democracy.

Is it really? I do wonder how many European countries would have withstood such an unprecedented assault on their democracy and rule of law had it been incited / planned from such high levels of executive power and directed against the very place where representative democracy takes place. Actually, given the historical experience of Europe, I don't wonder at all. As opposed to the USA, all important European countries and many of the less important ones, including my own, have experienced dictatorship. Whether one likes it or not, the USA is the only important Western country which has had an uninterrupted democratic regime ever since its foundation. I was never concerned that Trump could have changed it, I am not concerned that anyone can change it in the foreseeable future. American Exceptionalism is a fact, at least in this respect. I'm more concerned about radicalism, both right and left, in Europe.

EDIT: I did not compare the USA democracy and rule of law to Russia, China or North Korea, which are not democracies and ruled by law by any stretch of any standards. I simply said that the USA is still the Western world's leading expert on democracy and rule of law. See you all on January 20th.

[Karl Henning]

Misinformation dropped dramatically the week after Twitter banned Trump

A small town seethes after learning one of its own says he joined mob
In Aberdeen, Md., the police chief's son declared he had "stormed the Capitol," prompting the same reckoning underway in communities across the country.

And:

Before he stormed the Capitol, ex-W.Va. lawmaker harassed women at an abortion clinic.

[Fëanor]

I beg to differ. If anything, the last two weeks have shown the world that democracy and rule of law are resilient and fully functional in the USA --- and that they can still teach the whole world a thing or two about them. As far as I'm concerned, the democratic, freedom-loving world can have no other leader than the one they had for decades, namely the USA. There'll be a cold day in Hell before China or Russia would take their place.

I never thought that I would see a rabble storming the US Capital with the intent of roughing-up, or worse, duly elected Congressmen.  In fact I never thought I'd ever see such a life-long low-life as Trump elected President and perhaps 40% of people believing his transparent lies.  But I've seen it with my own eyes.

But you're right that there aren't any candidates to step up and take America's place if America fails.

[BasilValentine]

Here are a few hypothetical questions for everyone: do you think if these rioters show up fully armed and ready to kill that it will trigger a civil war? What is the likelihood this could happen and what will be the repercussions for such an act?

The likelihood would be a whole lot less had the insurrectionists been met with appropriate force on January 6. The authorities had better be ready to use deadly force at any subsequent uprisings if they hope to suppress these thugs. And to mete out maximum sentences for all convicted on misdemeanor or felony charges.

[Herman]

As opposed to the USA, all important European countries and many of the less important ones, including my own, have experienced dictatorship.

Well, that didn't last long, your plans to steer clear.

The above is obviously nonsense  -  or perhaps your "important countries just happen to be the ones that have "experienced dictatorship".

Pretty much every American with a sense of right and wrong has been saying this was the absolute nadir of democracy in the USA, and you seem to be saying it showed itself at its best. It did not. It's going to take a long time to get back. Maybe Rumania is not the best place to make sweeping statements about America.

[drogulus]

     If Repub state officials in battleground states had not chickened out, Trump would have pulled off a coup. Simply put, champion vote suppressors in Georgia Kemp and Raffensperger chickened out. An obscure election official in Michigan certified the results in his state. The Arizona governor wouldn't answer the phone. My point is that a democracy is not secure if only a handful of failure points miraculously refused to fail. If we need Demon Gov. Kemp to save us we are not secure.

[Karl Henning]

The crisis here is not yet over. America can yet fail, or overcome.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Some bits of news:

Heard earlier this afternoon on CNN:  A man from Virginia was arrested trying to enter (driving) the DC area with a fake inaugural pass, a gun, and rounds of ammunition.

Trump may not be able to live at Mar-a-lago full time due to an agreement that he made with the city in order to get some concessions/breaks.  According to the rules (when he was wanting to set it up as a club), no one (members) can stay there for more than 3 weeks in 7 day periods and not consecutively.  And it applies to all members.  Apparently Palm Beach didn't enforce this whilst he was president (even allowing a helipad there).  Here's the story that I heard:  https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2021/01/16/trump-mar-a-lago-move-pushback-kaye-pkg-ac360-vpx.cnn

PF

[SimonNZ]

I like to imagine a King Lear scenario where he tells his three oldest he's going to live with each of them on a rotating basis.

Yeah, there's no Cordelia in this version.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

EDIT to my above comment:  apparently the man was arrested in downtown DC?!

Simon:  Eh, I don't see him living with his kids.  Sorry, but I don't remember who it was, suggesting that he buy another property in PB.

PD

[Karl Henning]

Trump leaves behind a Republican Party both broken and still in his grip, Dan Balz of the WaPo

In four years, Trump ideologically twisted a party that once had a coherent conservative governing philosophy, which he does not. He put a vise grip on the party's grass roots and persuaded many of them to believe that truth does not matter. He opened up the party's coalition to an emboldened white supremacist movement.

The party's deterioration has been an ongoing story of the Trump presidency, but the damage done and the challenge of restoration have been underlined in the weeks since President-elect Joe Biden won the election with a comfortable electoral college majority and a decisive margin in the popular vote, amid no evidence of widespread fraud.

It was widely noted this past week when 10 Republicans joined House Democrats to support impeaching the president for a second time. Foremost among those dissenters from the party line was Rep. Liz Cheney of Wyoming, the third-ranking Republican in the House and the daughter of former vice president Richard B. Cheney. Her denunciation of the president's role in inciting a mob attack on the Capitol was as devastating as it was succinct. Her words and vote were a marker put down for the future.

More significant for the party's future than the 10 who voted to impeach was the fact that — in the face of an insurrection at the Capitol that resulted in the death of a police officer and four rioters, that threatened lives of lawmakers and their staffs and that came after Trump had whipped up a rally with rhetoric inveighing against weakness in trying to overturn the election — there were still 197 Republicans who voted not to impeach. However uncomfortable they were with Trump's role in the mob action, as some expressed, they nonetheless marched in lockstep as they have for four years.

If that vote were not evidence enough of Trump's hold on the party, what about the day the Capitol was ransacked? After the building had been secured and lawmakers had gone back to work on the night of Jan. 6, 147 Republicans in the House and Senate, including House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy of California, still supported one or both of the objections to the electoral college counts in Arizona and Pennsylvania.

And if all that weren't evidence enough of the party's incapacity to break with Trump, what about the 126 Republicans who in December joined the Texas lawsuit that sought to overturn the results of the election in four states after repeated efforts, legal and otherwise, to claim fraud had evaporated under scrutiny?

Did all those Republicans who opposed impeachment, supported the objections to the electoral college count and asked the Supreme Court to overturn the election believe what Trump said about a stolen election or believe that he is not responsible for inciting those who stormed the Capitol?

Some may have, but probably far from all. More likely is that for many this was one more example of how the bullying that has been part of Trump's playbook has affected the behavior of elected officials. Trump has intimidated them, making examples of any who openly challenged or criticized him by threatening them with primary challenges or worse.

Republicans say they got something out of this bargain with the leader most never wanted as their nominee in 2016 — more conservative judges, big tax cuts, regulatory rollbacks. But the costs have been sizable: the loss of the House, the Senate and the White House, all of which can be laid at Trump's feet. The path of least resistance that many Republicans have trod proved to have serious consequences. Party leaders, through silence but often also through verbal assent, allowed things to spiral downward.

Republicans are now two parties, the party of Trump and the party of Never Trump, and the lines are more clearly defined than ever. Republicans are conflicted, many recognizing the damage they know Trump has done while saying to themselves that they still managed to pick up seats in the House in November and could take it back in 2022. To say Republicans face a time of testing and introspection understates the period ahead.

[SimonNZ]

Listening to David Axelrod in a recent podcast and he reminded his co-hosts of Trump's words back in September:

"Speaker 2: (08:48)
[crosstalk 00:08:48] Right here, Mr. President, real quickly. Win, loser, draw in this election. Will you commit here today for a peaceful transfer of power after the election, either-

Speaker 2: (09:03)
Transferal of power after the election. And there has been rioting [inaudible 00:00:07], there's been rioting in many cities across this country, your so-called red and blue states. Will you commit to making sure that there is a peaceful transferal of power after the election?

President Donald Trump: (09:16)
Well, we're going to have to see what happens. You know that I've been complaining very strongly about the ballots. And the ballots are a disaster.

Speaker 2: (09:23)
I understand that but people are rioting. Do you commit to making sure that there's a peaceful transferal of power?

President Donald Trump: (09:29)
We want to have... Get rid of the ballots and we'll have a very peaceful... There won't be a transfer frankly, there'll be a continuation. The ballots are out of control. You know it, and you know who knows it better than anybody else? The Democrats know it better than anybody else."


transcript from:
https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/donald-trump-white-house-press-briefing-transcript-september-23