USA Politics (redux)

[Mirror Image]

When asked, Giuliani boasted that he did not care how history would view his ignominous wingman-for-Trump senescence.

"When I'm dead, I'm dead," he said, or something to that effect.

It's strange that people did not seem to realize there's a period in between, when Trump is not protecting you anymore (in sofar as he ever did) and you're not dead yet.

Giuliani is about to enter that period.

It's more or less the same with all these Capitol vandalizers who blissfully posted selfie vids online to save law enforcement time tracking them down. They thought they couldn't get hurt.

It seems to be part of Trumpist Derangement Syndrom.

It'll be nice to see Giuliani get taken down to size. I'll get the popcorn ready.

[MusicTurner]

When asked, Giuliani boasted that he did not care how history would view his ignominous wingman-for-Trump senescence.

"When I'm dead, I'm dead," he said, or something to that effect.

It's strange that people did not seem to realize there's a period in between, when Trump is not protecting you anymore (in sofar as he ever did) and you're not dead yet.

Giuliani is about to enter that period.

It's more or less the same with all these Capitol vandalizers who blissfully posted selfie vids online to save law enforcement time tracking them down. They thought they couldn't get hurt.

It seems to be part of Trumpist Derangement Syndrom.

For $ 1.3 billion, one could have enjoyed quite a few CDs ...

But it's perhaps one of those instances where the compensation amount seems less inflated, than in some cases.
Dominion got $ 120 mio in US deals during 2017-2019
https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2020/12/08/dominion-voting-systems-received-120-million-from-19-states-and-133-local-governments-to-provide-election-services-2017-2019/

Perhaps his best defense will be senility and health problems.

[71 dB]

Smiley-face lyin' Sarah Huckabee is going to run for Arkansas governor, saying that Washington is now in the hands of the "radical left."

Corporate Dems (majority of the Dems): Not left at all. Center or right of center. However, they are somewhat radical in ignoring the wishes of their base massively.

Progressive Dems (minority of the Dems): Yes, they are left, but not that radical. It's not radical to give healthcare to everyone (denying healthcare from millions IS really radical!).

The Republicans: Very radical and extremely right.

If anything, Washington has been in the hands of the "radical right" for decades. If Sarah Huckabee were right, we would be in the middle of the process of nationalization of Aetna and Big Pharma. Is that what's happening Sarah Huckabee? I didn't think so. Instead there's not even vote on medicare for all on the house floor! In the hands of the "radical left" my ass! 

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Supreme Court dismisses emoluments cases against Trump.   

The court instructed the lower courts to wipe away previous lower court opinions that went against Trump because he is no longer in office. It leaves unresolved a novel question raised in the case because Trump, unlike other presidents, did not use a blind trust when he assumed the presidency, but instead continued to retain an interest in his businesses and let those businesses to take money from foreign and domestic governments.

The order was issued without comment or dissent.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/25/politics/emoluments-supreme-court-donald-trump-case/index.html

[Herman]

Supreme Court dismisses emoluments cases against Trump.   

The court instructed the lower courts to wipe away previous lower court opinions that went against Trump because he is no longer in office. It leaves unresolved a novel question raised in the case because Trump, unlike other presidents, did not use a blind trust when he assumed the presidency, but instead continued to retain an interest in his businesses and let those businesses to take money from foreign and domestic governments.

The order was issued without comment or dissent.

This SCOTUS decision could have far reaching consequences.

First Trump can't be charged because he's president.
Next he can't be charged because he's no longer president.
This is what all Republicans are going to say in an Impeachment trial, with the exception of Romney.

[T. D.]

The SCOTUS dismissal of the emoluments case had been widely anticipated.

I read an article citing scholar Laurence Tribe to that effect months ago. Basically, the emoluments clause can only be invoked while the accused President is in office. Once gone, home free. Congress should have addressed the issue years ago, while Cheeto Mussolini was in office (yeah, right).

[Pohjolas Daughter]

The SCOTUS dismissal of the emoluments case had been widely anticipated.

I read an article citing scholar Laurence Tribe to that effect months ago. Basically, the emoluments clause can only be invoked while the accused President is in office. Once gone, home free. Congress should have addressed the issue years ago, while Cheeto Mussolini was in office (yeah, right).

Bummer (to put it politely)!

Heard or read about a week ago(?) that as he was leaving the office that Trump changed the rules about not being able to profit from the office (believe that it used to be for a 5 year period?).

[T. D.]

Bummer (to put it politely)!

Heard or read about a week ago(?) that as he was leaving the office that Trump changed the rules about not being able to profit from the office (believe that it used to be for a 5 year period?).

This is an article I believe I posted here in October:

https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2020-trump-faces-lawsuits-and-legal-threats/

If Trump loses

Trump will probably not have to worry about these [emoluments] cases. The goal of the suits was to force him to fully divest himself from his businesses while in office. But that will no longer be a relevant concern if Trump loses in November, and violations of the emoluments clauses do not carry any other financial penalties. "There's no longer any remedy that could be issued," Tribe says. "It's unfortunate but likely that the emoluments cases will be dismissed."

[Pohjolas Daughter]

This is an article I believe I posted here in October:

https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2020-trump-faces-lawsuits-and-legal-threats/

If Trump loses

Trump will probably not have to worry about these [emoluments] cases. The goal of the suits was to force him to fully divest himself from his businesses while in office. But that will no longer be a relevant concern if Trump loses in November, and violations of the emoluments clauses do not carry any other financial penalties. "There's no longer any remedy that could be issued," Tribe says. "It's unfortunate but likely that the emoluments cases will be dismissed."

Thanks for the information. 

But violations don't carry "any other financial penalties"?  What penalties could he have incurred if found guilty?

PD

[T. D.]

Thanks for the information. 

But violations don't carry "any other financial penalties"?  What penalties could he have incurred if found guilty?

PD

Dunno, sorry. I didn't follow the story carefully enough to have researched fine points, and given that it's a dead issue, I surely won't now.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Dunno, sorry. I didn't follow the story carefully enough to have researched fine points, and given that it's a dead issue, I surely won't now.

Thanks anyway.

I did find this article to be interesting.  Note:  It's from 2016.  https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/constitution-check-can-a-violation-of-the-emoluments-clause-be-proven/

Constitution Check: Can a violation of the Emoluments Clause be proven?

Lyle Denniston, Constitution Daily's Supreme Court correspondent, says that unanswered constitutional questions about the president's acceptance of financial gifts or things of value from foreign governments might reside in the White House itself.

800px-West_side_of_the_White_House_Executive_ResidenceTHE STATEMENT AT ISSUE:

"It is possible that many transactions between foreign states and the Trump empire would involve no actual impropriety, but it is a virtual certainty that many would create the risk of divided or blurred loyalties that the Emoluments Clause was enacted to prohibit.  And while

in some instances the threat might be readily apparent, the majority of potential conflicts would be cloaked in secrecy, buried in technicalities, or impossible to prove definitively.  That is true both because Mr. Trump has declined to make many of his business dealings transparent, and because any president often acts overtly and on the basis of extremely complicated motives.  Disentangling any potential improper influence resulting from special treatment of Mr. Trump's business holdings by foreign states would be extremely difficult, at best.  The American people would be condemned to uncertainty and innuendo, and our political discourse would be rife with unresolved and unresolvable accusations of corruption."

– Excerpt from a Brookings Institution white paper, issued December 16, on the Constitution's Emoluments Clause, by two former White House ethics lawyers -- Norman J. Eisen and Richard W. Painter -- and Harvard law professor Laurence H. Tribe.

WE CHECKED THE CONSTITUTION, AND...

The founding generation was entirely familiar with a common practice among European royalty of doling out favors – financial and otherwise – to influence other governments.  In writing the Constitution, that generation sought to make sure that this did not happen in the new American government.  That is why they included the Emoluments Clause, barring foreign government gifts or anything of value to any officer of the U.S. government – unless Congress consented.

America is getting reacquainted with that Clause, in the broad debate now unfolding over how President-elect Donald Trump will separate himself – if he will – from his far-flung business interests in the Trump Organization.  Three central questions have tended to dominate that debate: first, will Trump actually violate the Clause; second, if he is suspected of doing so, how will that be proved, and, third, who would enforce the Clause?

There is little history surrounding the Clause since it was inserted in the original Constitution in 1787, but what history there is suggests quite strongly that it would mainly be up to Congress to enforce its restriction on foreign largesse for an American president or other federal officials.  And it also suggests that most of the time a president or other official initiates an inquiry to Congress about whether it will consent to accepting and keeping a particular valuable item.  In 1833, for example, President Andrew Jackson asked Congress if he could keep a gold medal given to him by a foreign government, and Congress said no.

But what if no inquiry is sent to Congress?  Then, it seems, a discovery of a potential violation would depend upon the diligence of the lawmakers in monitoring how a president who also has extensive financial interests deals with foreign governments.  If Congress is controlled by the same political party as the White House, what would the incentive be to engage in such 1monitoring?  Perhaps only if potential violations otherwise became public knowledge might the lawmakers take notice.

If Congress did take notice, it could veto the gift or other thing of value, but its only real enforcement power – aside from potential adverse publicity -- is the awesome authority to impeach a president.

There is considerable debate about the availability of another potential enforcement mechanism – that is, can any private citizen or private business (say, a competitor) sue?  That would have to be tested, to be sure.

But, as the quotation above from the new Brookings Institution analysis illustrates, the biggest uncertainty about enforcing the Emoluments Clause is the question of proof of a violation.  In the situation of a president who also is a business executive with wide holdings, and particularly one who does not make a full public disclosure of the extent and detail of those holdings, how can it be shown that the business benefited from a forbidden favor – and, in turn, how to show that the president benefitted?

Thus, the first question to be raised in monitoring what a President Trump might be doing that could raise concerns under the Emoluments Clause is how to find out when an arm of his business had dealings with a foreign government.  How could that be probed by, say, investigative journalists?  What kind of public reports, if any, might be revealing?  Would the foreign government talk publicly about such a transaction?

The business, of course, would have to file U.S. tax returns, but would the Internal Revenue Service have any authority to investigate a potential violation of the Emoluments Clause?  That is highly doubtful, especially if the company's revenues from abroad appeared to be, or actually were, the result of normal business deals.

And, even a gesture as simple as a payment of money by a foreign government to one branch of the president's business empire may get complicated by issues of motive – on both sides of the transaction – and benefit.  If the payment were for goods or services of a normal kind, and the money was paid at usual market rates, what effect might that have on the business entity's revenues, its profits, and the ongoing value of the business?  Indeed, are profits for a business owned by a president even covered by the Emoluments Clause?

If the Emoluments Clause is thought of, fundamentally, as a check upon outright bribery or blatant favoritism, why would foreign actions in the normal course of business be a violation?  And, even if the motive of the foreign donor were suspect, is the American business responsible, legally, for that?

What seems clear from even a cursory analysis of the constitutional problem is that fidelity to the Emoluments Clause may ultimately depend upon the good faith of the president as a businessman.  The Constitution places enormous trust in the occupant of the White House and, in doing so, expresses an aspiration that the trust will not be abused.

Legendary journalist Lyle Denniston is Constitution Daily's Supreme Court correspondent. Denniston has written for us as a contributor since June 2011 and he has covered the Supreme Court since 1958. His work also appears on lyldenlawnews.com.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

I found this to be rather amusing.  It's one of the headlines and link to an article currently on the main page of CNN's website. 

SCOUTS dismisses emoluments cases against Trump.

[Karl Henning]

The emoluments cases didn't reach the Supreme Court until Trump was out of office only because his lawyers deliberately used every delaying tactic they could to assure the cases would not reach the Court until he WAS out of office.  Like deliberately running out the statute of limitations.  The Supreme Court just didn't want to take the cases.

The whole team is all about obstruction of justice.

[Herman]

Evading justice by delay, counter-sue and settle has been Trump's m.o. for his entire adult life.

However, what's more concerning is that clearly the GOP and the judicial apparatus they have put in place has in the interval since Jan 6 decided that Biden c.s. are not going to get anything done; the GOP is going to continue its hold on power via every means possible.

There is not going to be an impeachment conviction (Romney and Murkowski are going to be the only ones voting for, and they'll be hounded out of office, if not straight up assassinated); there aren't going to be successful court cases (see above) and Trump is going to rule from Mar a Lago.

I say this without any pleasure, but it looks like the USA is kaputt.

[SimonNZ]

Evading justice by delay, counter-sue and settle has been Trump's m.o. for his entire adult life.

However, what's more concerning is that clearly the GOP and the judicial apparatus they have put in place has in the interval since Jan 6 decided that Biden c.s. are not going to get anything done; the GOP is going to continue its hold on power via every means possible.

There is not going to be an impeachment conviction (Romney and Murkowski are going to be the only ones voting for, and they'll be hounded out of office, if not straight up assassinated); there aren't going to be successful court cases (see above) and Trump is going to rule from Mar a Lago.

I say this without any pleasure, but it looks like the USA is kaputt.

I'm not seeing that, Either of those.

[71 dB]

I say this without any pleasure, but it looks like the USA is kaputt.

Intellectually yes. Somehow I am even more depressed/sad about what's happening in the US now that Trump has gone. Trump was just one man, one lunatic. Now that he is off the limelights, his lunatic followers and other crazy people show up.

What I fear is social media keeps dividing people into bubbles of insanity in ALL countries in the World and a few decades from now everyone's kaputt. The civilization is kaputt. Too large percentage of people just don't have adequate skills in critical thinking to be immune to the rabbit holes of social media. I don't know why this is, but it's how it is. It's the same as a lot of people going insane if they get rich fast. We who do have critical thinking skills and are immune to the crazy conspiracy theories etc. nonsense brainwashing people can only watch helplessly how the amount of insane people grows and grows...

The US is a warning to other countries. You have to teach critical thinking skills in school. You have to protect democracy. You have to uphold humanism. You have to have a vision and work for it in society. Don't cencor social media. Instead, teach people to filter out lunacy.

[DavidW]

You have to teach critical thinking skills in school.

That unfortunately doesn't work.  I know people that very much can think critically, but they are inundated with a constant stream of speculation, opinions and misinformation through certain news networks and social media and they become brainwashed to that perspective without realizing it.  And it occurs on both sides of the political spectrum.  Highly educated, intelligent people seem to be MORE susceptible to this and not less.  The only cure is face to face conversation with people that think differently from you.

[Karl Henning]

That unfortunately doesn't work.  I know people that very much can think critically, but they are inundated with a constant stream of speculation, opinions and misinformation through certain news networks and social media and they become brainwashed to that perspective without realizing it.  And it occurs on both sides of the political spectrum.  Highly educated, intelligent people seem to be MORE susceptible to this and not less.  The only cure is face to face conversation with people that think differently from you.

Very good.

[BasilValentine]

That unfortunately doesn't work.  I know people that very much can think critically, but they are inundated with a constant stream of speculation, opinions and misinformation through certain news networks and social media and they become brainwashed to that perspective without realizing it.  And it occurs on both sides of the political spectrum.  Highly educated, intelligent people seem to be MORE susceptible to this and not less.  The only cure is face to face conversation with people that think differently from you.

It is endemic and central on one side of the spectrum and a marginal issue on the other. Your both sidism is a delusion. The problem isn't people who think differently, it's a whole segment of the population who refuses to think because they are unable to admit even to themselves the motivations behind their actions and public statements. For a large segment of the Trump base it's racism and fear of changing demographics to the core, which they cannot allow themselves to acknowledge. And do you think the Qanon people really believe that nonsense? Of course they don't. Their identification with these ideas has nothing to do with thinking or belief in any serious adult sense. It's a fantasy game they're pretending is real in a kind of childish regression because this allows them to sublimate and focus their most shameful and irrational impulses outward rather than having to confront the real issues in their lives and their true fears.

[Karl Henning]

Insofar as I have a problem in this wise (and maybe I do) it isn't because I don't have tète-á-tètes with QAnon-oids.