Beethoven: Last great classicist ... or first great romantic?

[Scriptavolant]

Of course there is an artificial content in such time divisions: Beethoven is quite different from Mozart, and Mozart quite different from C. P. E. Bach, but they are all generally included in the Classical era.

Of course, Haydn Mozart and Beethoven are called the Classical triad. Said that, interpretations I've read, and I tend to agree with, usually point out that Beethoven, notwithstanding his chronological belonging to the classical period, it is a whole of a different story (some go on, claiming that this difference is synonym of superiority. On this I disagree, since it's a view which tends to belong to idealistic interpretations of History as a progression towards perfection..but this is a different subject.)
Of course classifications are abstract concepts. Nevertheless they're sometimes useful.

As I wrote above, and to quote Longears, I think Beethoven is both the options offered in the poll. Each single choice leads to an incomplete view of his Art.

[quintett op.57]

The correct answer is Beethoven was a transitionary figure. 

You can hear find roots to romanticism in the "London symphony".
The problem is that music evolves continuously. There are much more transitions than what we usually believe.
It's not Beethoven, Schubert, Weber or Paganini who created Romanticism, It's the scholars who decided to consider that a new period had begun at the beginning of the XIXth and who decided to call it romanticism.

[Josquin des Prez]

The problem, i think, is that most individuals simply do not understand Romanticism. The general assumption is that it's purpose was the expression of emotion, which was paramount to Beethoven, but not necessarely to the Romantics, who's chief aim was literary expression, conveying the power of words (and poetry) through music, both in the sense of clear narratives (Wagner, Liszt) or brief glimpses of poetic beauty (Schumann).

This union between literacy and music was then converged into a sense of spontaneity and freedom. A true poet, according to the Romantics, was not one who used rules and formulae to organize words into a strict aesthetic pattern. A poet was supposed to speak freely, openly, hoping for the muses to grace him with a few glimpses of true artistic genius, after which it came the painstaking process of trying to capture that fleeting moment of brilliance and write it down on paper, usually only in partial form (as Chopin often lamented).

Beethoven had nothing in common with all that. He was a crafter, his music followed strict logical patterns and clear developments. His intellect went hand in hand with his heart, and nothing was ever left to chance or mere 'inspiration'. Everything had to be planned down to the last detail, which clearly brands him as a classicist.

He still remains one of the most influential composers of all time (see my contribution to the Beethoven: Innovator thread), but it's a mistake to think he was a transitory figure. Romanticism did NOT develop out of classicism and Beethoven would have NOT moved towards the latter had he lived longer.

[Grazioso]

Schubert was the first great, indubitable Romantic to my ears, in terms of the music itself and all its Romantic literary ties. Either way, Classicism and Romanticism in music are akin to ends of a spectrum of techniques, forms, and personal expressiveness, with many composers drawing from each end. Even Haydn and Mozart have their "Romantic" moments.

[mahlertitan]

it's pointless to talk about who is "first" of this, or "last" of that, that matters really little, sometimes you don't have a choice, you were born into that era by sheer accident. Therefore, instead of wasting our tongues on who was actually "first" we should rather talk about who is A great classicist, or who is A great romantic, and give our reasons, and we all agree, and go sleep.

[Scriptavolant]

Reducing the whole Romantic thing to a fusion between literacy and music doesn't sound like understanding Romanticism, either.
I'm trying to see if branding Beethoven as a classicist because he had great attention for details is a sign of understanding Classicism too.

Given that definitions are mere abstractions, I consider Beethoven a Romantic composer because I'm forced to do that by the options given in the OP. If one considers every definition as an abstraction, and wants to be completely coherent, then the definition of Beethoven as "classicist" should be banned for it is equally worthless.
If one considers Romanticism as a huge cultural movement there are many things that Beethoven introduced and that are arbitrarily classified by scholars as signs of a moving towards Romanticism. The artist who's independent of aristocratical commission, who has a social mission (the so called vate), who's influenced by political and philosophical issues and that consciously include and transifigure them in his works.
Of course one can find such features in a lot of composers before and after Beethoven, the point infact is not to establish which period invented something, or introduced something completely new, but to understand which period gave the greatest importance to that "something".

[BachQ]

Obviously, we need an agreed-upon definition of Romanticism as applied to music.

Allrefer.com has this definition:

Romanticism

In music, the period from about 1810 to around 1910 – that is, after the classical period. Classical composers had tried to create a balance between expression and formal structure; Romantic composers altered this balance by applying more freedom to the form and structure of their music, and using deeper, more intense expressions of moods, feelings, and emotions. An increased interest in literature, nature, the supernatural, and love, along with nationalistic feelings and the idea of the musician as visionary artist and hero (virtuoso) all added to the development of Romanticism. The movement reached its height in the late 19th century, as in the works of Robert Schumann and Richard Wagner.

With the emphasis on imagination and vision, the formal structure was stretched to accommodate a wider range of keys and sudden changes between them, and dynamic and instrumental timbres were also used. Harmonies became richer, dissonance was more freely used, and modulation played a more important role. Fantasy and imagination were important to the Romantic style. Composers were often widely read and were inspired by poems, novels, plays, and paintings. There was a large increase in the orchestra at this time, both in the number of instruments and in their range of pitches and timbres. The symphony, concerto, and opera were all written on a larger scale and an interest in programme music led to the development of a new musical form, the symphonic poem. At the opposite end of the scale, composers also wrote extended, virtuosic works for just one or two musicians. These included much work for piano (which was a favourite instrument), and a large number of songs. Virtuoso instrumental players were becoming increasingly popular and the virtuoso composer-performer was a much admired musician. Great examples of these are Niccolò Paganini and Franz Liszt. A strong move towards nationalism developed as composers reacted against the powerful German influences by developing a musical style that expressed the characteristics of their own country. They did this by including tunes from their nation's folk music, and taking scenes from their country's history, legends, and folk tales, as a basis for their compositions.

[Mark]

Obviously, we need an agreed-upon definition of Romanticism as applied to music.

Allrefer.com has this definition:

Romanticism

In music, the period from about 1810 to around 1910 – that is, after the classical period. Classical composers had tried to create a balance between expression and formal structure; Romantic composers altered this balance by applying more freedom to the form and structure of their music, and using deeper, more intense expressions of moods, feelings, and emotions. An increased interest in literature, nature, the supernatural, and love, along with nationalistic feelings and the idea of the musician as visionary artist and hero (virtuoso) all added to the development of Romanticism. The movement reached its height in the late 19th century, as in the works of Robert Schumann and Richard Wagner.

With the emphasis on imagination and vision, the formal structure was stretched to accommodate a wider range of keys and sudden changes between them, and dynamic and instrumental timbres were also used. Harmonies became richer, dissonance was more freely used, and modulation played a more important role. Fantasy and imagination were important to the Romantic style. Composers were often widely read and were inspired by poems, novels, plays, and paintings. There was a large increase in the orchestra at this time, both in the number of instruments and in their range of pitches and timbres. The symphony, concerto, and opera were all written on a larger scale and an interest in programme music led to the development of a new musical form, the symphonic poem. At the opposite end of the scale, composers also wrote extended, virtuosic works for just one or two musicians. These included much work for piano (which was a favourite instrument), and a large number of songs. Virtuoso instrumental players were becoming increasingly popular and the virtuoso composer-performer was a much admired musician. Great examples of these are Niccolò Paganini and Franz Liszt. A strong move towards nationalism developed as composers reacted against the powerful German influences by developing a musical style that expressed the characteristics of their own country. They did this by including tunes from their nation's folk music, and taking scenes from their country's history, legends, and folk tales, as a basis for their compositions.

This'll do for me.

[BachQ]

This'll do for me.

....... Quick ........ Lock the thread ........ 

[Scriptavolant]

A couple more definitions:

Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanticism

Encyclopedia britannica
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9083836/Romanticism

[Scriptavolant]

....... Quick ........ Lock the thread ........ 

Not before we promote a new poll.
What does the dawn mean to you.
1. The end of the night
2. The beginning of the day

[BachQ]

A couple more definitions:

Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanticism

As to Beethoven:

The romantic generation viewed Beethoven as their ideal of a heroic artist--a man who challenged Emperor Napoleon by striking him out from the dedication of the Eroica Symphony. In Beethoven's Fidelio he creates the apotheosis of the 'rescue operas' which were another feature of French musical culture during the revolutionary period, in order to hymn the freedom which underlay the thinking of all radical artists in the years of hope after the Congress of Vienna.

* * *

Beethoven's use of tonal architecture in such a way as to allow significant expansion of musical forms and structures was immediately recognized as bringing a new dimension to music. The later piano music and string quartets, especially, showed the way to a completely unexplored musical universe. The writer, critic (and composer) Hoffmann was able to write of the supremacy of instrumental music over vocal music in expressiveness, a concept which would previously have been regarded as absurd. Hoffmann himself, as a practitioner both of music and literature, encouraged the notion of music as 'programmatic' or telling a story, an idea which new audiences found attractive, however irritating it was to some composers (e.g. Felix Mendelssohn). New developments in instrumental technology in the early nineteenth century—iron frames for pianos, wound metal strings for string instruments—enabled louder dynamics, more varied tone colours, and the potential for sensational virtuosity. Such developments swelled the length of pieces, introduced programmatic titles, and created new genres such as the free standing overture or tone-poem, the piano fantasy, nocturne and rhapsody, and the virtuoso concerto, which became central to musical romanticism.


Richard WagnerIn opera, a new Romantic atmosphere combining supernatural terror and melodramatic plot in a folkloric context was most successfully achieved by Weber's Der Freischütz (1817, 1821). Enriched timbre and color marked the early orchestration of Hector Berlioz in France, and the grand operas of Meyerbeer. Amongst the radical fringe of what became mockingly characterised (adopting Wagner's own words) as 'artists of the future', Liszt and Wagner each embodied the Romantic cult of the free, inspired, charismatic, perhaps ruthlessly unconventional individual artistic personality.

It is the period of 1815 to 1848 which must be regarded as the true age of Romanticism in music - the age of the last compositions of Beethoven (d. 1827) and Schubert (d. 1828), of the works of Schumann (d. 1856) and Chopin (d.1849), of the early struggles of Berlioz and Richard Wagner, of the great virtuosi such as Paganini (d. 1840), and the young Liszt and Thalberg. Now that we are able to listen to the work of Mendelssohn (d. 1847) stripped of the Biedermeier reputation unfairly attached to it, he can also be placed in this more appropriate context. After this period, with Chopin and Paganini dead, Liszt retired from the concert platform at a minor German court, Wagner effectively in exile until he obtained royal patronage in Bavaria, and Berlioz still struggling with the bourgeois liberalism which all but smothered radical artistic endeavour in Europe, Romanticism in music was surely past its prime—giving way, rather, to the period of musical romantics.

[Mark]

A couple more definitions:

Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanticism

Encyclopedia britannica
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9083836/Romanticism

Yep, I'll go with those, too.

Not before we promote a new poll.
What does the dawn mean to you.
1. The end of the night
2. The beginning of the day

Option two. In the same way that dusk is the beginning of night. Night only ends because day begins. That's my rather simplistic way of seeing it.

[Scriptavolant]

Night only ends because day begins.

Exactly 

[Mark]

Exactly 

Ergo, romanticism began with Beethoven. Perhaps not in his earlier works, which bear all the hallmarks of classicism, but certainly in his later works.

Glad we cleared that up.

[Larry Rinkel]

Ergo, romanticism began with Beethoven. Perhaps not in his earlier works, which bear all the hallmarks of classicism, but certainly in his later works.

Glad we cleared that up.

Except that in some of his more mature works, he seems to have deliberately looked back to classic forms, style, and proportions. The outstanding example is the Quartet #16 in F, op. 135, where the first movement looks back to Haydn. But this could be said too of the middle movements of the 8th symphony, the 3rd movement of the C major Rasumofsky, no doubt others.

[Mark]

Larry, note my little

[Scriptavolant]

Except that in some of his more mature works, he seems to have deliberately looked back to classic forms, style, and proportions. The outstanding example is the Quartet #16 in F, op. 135, where the first movement looks back to Haydn. But this could be said too of the middle movements of the 8th symphony, the 3rd movement of the C major Rasumofsky, no doubt others.

I don't understand. Does this make Beethoven a classicist? Didn't Mozart look back at Bach in the 41th? Didn't Brahms look back at the German Baroque tradition in the Deutsche Requiem? Something analogous happens with Bruckner too. And Stravinskij, Schonberg, Webern. No-one I guess would accept Schonberg to be considered as a XXth Century Baroque composer or Brahms to be considered as a Classicist in the literaly meaning of the term.
Precisely the fact that Beethoven had to look back should suggest that as a matter of fact he had gone far beyond.

[Florestan]

The first real Romantic was Schubert in my opinion.  But also in my opinion Brahms was the real last Classicist.

Seconded.

[Larry Rinkel]

Larry, note my little

Noted. Eighth-noted, in fact (or quavered, for those of you on the other side of the Pond).